Andy Hibel 0:03
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs Podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the Chief Operating Officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly Cherwin 0:09
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the Director of Editorial Strategy. Today we're here with expert Matt Trainum, who is the Vice President, Networks and Strategic Partnerships at the Council of Independent Colleges. Welcome, Matt.

Matt Trainum 0:21
Kelly, Andy, I couldn't imagine a better place to be. Thanks again for having me.

Andy Hibel 0:24
Nice to see you again, Matt.

Kelly Cherwin 0:25
Today's question is, I recently went on an interview, but when I got there, I didn't feel that I was actually being considered and the committee seemed like it was just going through the motions. Are there questions that I should ask in advance or research I should do to know if I'm truly a valued candidate?

Andy Hibel 0:40
Matt, what are your thoughts on this one?

Matt Trainum 0:43
Yeah, I'm going to stop just at those last two words as we start this question. A valued candidate often means a valued employee and an employer that is treating folks well. So we're going to talk some more detail here. But to me, this is a wonderful opportunity just to look at the reputation of the place you're working. If they're treating their employees well, they're probably going to treat their candidates well. I would check out things like Great Places to Work. I would look at, with a grain of salt, reviews on Glassdoor. I would Google around and just see what the general vibe is of folks who are working at a place. That's just a good place to start. I think if they're treating their employees well, they're probably going to treat their candidates well.

Kelly Cherwin 1:29
I agree with that. So I'm wondering, do you think that there are some red flags that this person's seeing then if they already know that they're possibly not a valid candidate, if that's the place of employment that they want to consider? Or is that going too far?

Matt Trainum 1:42
Yeah, I mean, certainly they picked up on something, right? I always try to read the culture while I'm in conversations and also be forgiving of the culture. And there's a really interesting balance there. If it's a one particular interview, it might be a busy day. Folks might be worried about other things. There might be all sorts of things are in our heads right now as we're recording this, right? All sorts of worries and thoughts and memories. And who knows how that shows up in a conversation. So I think it's worth noting and it's worth trying to catalog across the experiences that you have with the institution and its representatives, if it's a one-off interview, if that's all you got, it's all you got. But if you've had other conversations, if it's multiple interviews, you can assess across all of that. I want to just say to me that the scenario of somebody being interviewed when they aren't intending to seriously consider you, I just want to say, I hear that now and then it just feels really unlikely. How many of us have known people that's like, yep, just had an interview today with somebody I'm definitely not going to hire. And I knew that before the interview. I just don't think it's very likely because they don't mind wasting your time. That might be true, but they don't want to waste their time. So if they're interviewing you, I'm going to give the possibility here that if they're interviewing you, you've got a shot. And so what I would suggest is to ignore the evidence to the contrary, even if it might be true, to ignore the evidence to the contrary and to take your shot and to surprise them. They might have a really preferred candidate. I will say this very frequently when I bring candidates in for interviews, there's a preferred and there's a runner up. That's pretty common, right? And I know the that I expect to do well. And I know the one I don't expect to do as well. I am always ready to be surprised though. I'm always ready for that person that's coming in. I've invited them in. So what I would say is, is shoot your shot in those moments, every time you get it, and then see if you can surprise the people who you think might have a preconceived notion about your candidacy.

Andy Hibel 3:40
I think it kind of goes to the-and I think I'm fair in calling it a myth of the preordained candidate. I think that there's a certain feel out there that, oh, they're just going through the motions of a job search. I can't say it doesn't happen. And I can't say that people's time is not wasted on a very regular basis. Right.

We recently did a podcast about the idea of being respectful of what you ask of candidates was kind of the thread of the conversation. All those things are important. If you are folks doing that, it does not, it does not bode well with candidates. It does not bode well for results of your process. Really reconsider what you're doing, if you're out there doing that. But I'd also say this is one of those instances where I really agree with what you just said, Matt. Take your shot. But I look at it even differently. Let's just say there is a preordained candidate. It's not often you've had a lot of practice, but now you're going to get game reps, do your interview, figure out what you can learn about your candidacy by doing that interview and make it a value to just say, well, I don't think I have a shot at this, so I'm not going to do it. Leave everything you can at game time. This is game time. Do it. Tell your story, find things out about your candidacy that you didn't know before. And this is a win. And if it really was preordained, so be it. But I also kind of like the idea that you don't know where you sit and what the process is like and why the, for lack of a better term, energy seems off.

Kelly Cherwin 5:21
I absolutely agree with everything that you said. And I love, Matt, that you take the approach of like, surprise me, I want to be surprised. That's great for the interviewer. But yeah, as a candidate, take your shot. What do you have to lose? Like you can only get better, like Andy was saying the word practice. So I agree with what both you guys were saying.

Andy Hibel 5:39
And you know what's going to really surprise people? If you take a kind of meh energy in the room and you turn it upside down and everybody is jazzed after your interview, you have just really taken huge strides and surprise people. And that, that will leave an impact.

Matt Trainum 5:58
Andy, I could not agree with you more. You know that we've all connected in the past at, at large interview events where hundreds of candidates are getting interviewed all at once. And one of the the things I would say when I would give advice to those candidates is wake the people up at the table. You know, wake us up. We are stuck in our emails. We're running out. We're looking at your resume for one minute before we get into that interview, zoom, or perhaps negative one minute. We're looking at it while you were doing your introduction. Wake us up with your answers. Surprise us. Here's a two quick stories, perhaps a story. Number one, maybe just a sentence of a story. I just hired someone not long ago, who was third place when we were bringing candidates in and just beat the others, uh, least experienced of the group, least resumed, but just beat them. Beat them at the answers, beat them at the, um, understanding of the role, just beat them. And I was like, look at like, we're going to hire this person. And I was surprised, but they surprised us. Right. I mean, she delivered everything she needed to deliver. And so that, that, that is just a lived experience of bringing someone in. Was I wasting her time? No way. I was not wasting her time. I needed, I wanted three candidates. I wanted to have some choice. Did I expect to hire her? No. Did I hire her? Yes. Because she was the best candidate. Here's a, uh, a second story. Um, y'all,

Andy Hibel 7:22
I can't wait till she listens to this podcast.

Matt Trainum 7:24
I, well, speaking of listening to the podcast, got a message the other day from somebody who listens to this podcast. And, uh, this person has been a candidate for president. I know most of our listeners are probably not candidates for president. They've been a candidate for president for a while. And, uh, they said, Hey, do you mind if we chat a bit because I'm, I'm outside of higher ed. I've been a finalist for a presidency a couple times. And I don't think people are open to me as a candidate from outside higher ed. So this scenario is a very specific version of the one that we've gotten coming into this question. Right. And he wanted to talk it through. And part of where our conversation was, was they're accepting you and your paper presentation. And they're bringing you into the conversation and they're interviewing you and you're making a lot of progress. So then how do we get out of your head that you're not a good candidate because you're outside higher ed, right? Because I think, you know, one of you were just referencing kind of going in and sort of negatively kind of playing out your expectation that this isn't real. And by the way, I don't think this person was doing that. They're fantastic. Uh, but I think if you go in with that worry, if you go on with the idea that, oh, this isn't going to be a real interview, you're just not delivering what you can. And so to go and deliver what you can and all opportunities, whether it's for a presidency or coordinator or whichever and see what happens, that's the magic.

Mike Walker 8:52
Calling all higher ed professionals. If you like what you're hearing on the HigherEdJobs podcast, subscribe to HigherEdJobs, Insider Update, your weekly ticket to the latest opportunities, trends, and insider tips in the world of higher education delivered directly to your inbox. Don't miss out on featured job postings, career advice, job search tips, and more. subscribe now and stay one step ahead in the ever evolving landscape of academia. Head to higheredjobs.com/insider to sign up your future self will thank you. Once again, that's higheredjobs.com/insider.

Matt Trainum 9:29
So, you know, one or two other notes on this topic. I will say for folks who are in jobs where search firms are involved, um, I don't want to ever read too much into the search firms approach and the institutions, there are two cultures at play in those moments I guess is the main thing I'm trying to say. So, if the search firm feels aloof, I don't want to read that too much into whether that's the same as the institutions culture. If the search firm's not great in the communication, I don't necessarily want to read that too much into the institutions culture or vice versa, by the way. So I'm just mentioning that as a, as a piece. Um, I will say we've been really, um, you know, philosophically cheering people on. I do think you can look at some clues. How long is the posting open for? I think that's sometimes a reasonable clue. Though I will say, I have a colleague who saw posting the other day, it was open for 10 days. And they're like, do you think this is real? I'm like, I don't know. They went ahead and applied for it. They did not progress in the search, but they got a note that in those 10 days, that place had had like 120 applications. And so they apparently knew that they only needed 10 days to get it and that they had picked 10 people for next round interviews. So even though I read that has 10 days, I'm guessing they've got an internal, they had an internal serving as interim. I was like, I'm, you can read the tea leaves that way. I think I was reading them wrong, right? I think they were actually doing a search and I think they're actually hiring someone and they're just moving faster than I would have imagined. So, so I think those are reasonable things to look at, but if you want the job, take a shot at the job and see what happens. That's, that's the advice you're hearing from this crew here.

Mike Walker 11:05
I think also, even if there is a pre-ordained person that they're going to hire, they called you in for something. So take your shot. It's not for this job. It's for every job that they could see you in.

Kelly Cherwin 11:22
That is a great point, Mike, because it actually, that happened to me one time in my career. I interviewed for one position and they said at the same institution, they said, we don't think you're a right fit for this, but would you be interested in this role? And I was like, well, yes I am. And I think I was a better fit for that second role. So yeah.

Matt Trainum 11:39
Mike, I hope that stays on the live feed here. That's a fantastic tip.

Mike Walker 11:43
Thanks.

Matt Trainum 11:44
About two or three years ago, I hired three people out of one pool. The other two people for two different jobs hired the one for one job. And then we had two other openings show up and I was like, these people came and delivered really well. And I don't feel like taking three months to search for someone else. And we picked them up and have just been super happy with all of that.

Andy Hibel 12:03
The one thing I'd like to close with is kind of coming back to the due diligence you need to do in your job search after the fact. I think having a realistic expectation of the experience you just went through. And if somehow now it progresses to the point where you're actually considering working in this role, I do think you need to really be as clear headed as you can to be able to look at this role and say, is this a role I can succeed in? This would be a red flag for me if now they come back and offer me the job not necessarily a deal breaker, but a definite red flag that I'd want to understand other things as to why. Don't forget that. Just because you succeed and you change everything that you thought here and they offer you the job, it doesn't mean that this is the right role for you. It might be, Matt, to a lot of the points you just made, it might be a lot of things kind of wrong with what's going on. So just make sure you do your due diligence.

Kelly Cherwin 13:01
Well, thank you, Matt, for joining us today. It's always a pleasure having you on.

Matt Trainum 13:04
I love it every time. Thank you.

Andy Hibel 13:05
And thank you for listening. If you have questions for experts like Matt, please email them to us at

podcast@higheredjobs.com, or please send us a direct message on X @higheredcareers. Thank you for listening and we look forward to talking real soon.