Andy 0:04
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly 0:10
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the Director of Editorial Strategy. Today we are happy to have Gail Freeman back on the podcast and we'll be talking about insights from her over 10,000 interviews that she's done over her career. Gail is the principal and founder of Freeman Philanthropic Services, bringing decades of experience in the nonprofit and philanthropic sectors. She's recognized for her leadership and executive recruitment, fundraising, and strategic consulting for mission driven organizations. Headquartered in New York City and found in 2002 Freeman Philanthropic Services F. P. FPS is a retained firm serving the nonprofit sector. F. P. FPS has completed 705 executive recruitment, including executive leaders in development, communications, finance, human resources, programs, operations, legal counsel, CEOs, and executive directors. Gail, it's so great to have you back today.

Gail Freeman 1:00
Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.

Kelly 1:02
So I mentioned you've led more than 10,000 interviews throughout your career. Congrats on that. That's a lot of interviews. So what have you observed that consistently helps candidates stand out in the competitive search process?

Gail Freeman 1:15
There are three things, being prepared, reading the position profile thoroughly, doing the research that's necessary to have a better understanding. And being clear about who they are as an individual. I also find that candidates during the interview process, that's interesting with Zoom, it's somewhat too dimensional. So with the Zoom interview, they become very informal when they should remain formal. What I mean by that is they're not in an environment that really it's not just their candidacy, the environment that they surround themselves and present themselves in, it's not appropriate. I've had cats crawl across the back, some neck, the dogs barking. When you're in a job interview, you should put yourself in a position, a professional position. And even though you're on a Zoom and you're in your living room, you need to look professional. You also need to dress for the appropriate interview. You know, I've seen all kinds of people show up in inappropriate wear. And I think that's in another quite honestly. I also find that people don't answer the question, it's okay to ask, please could you clarify that question? I also have found that candidates, they use humor too soon. Humors are very intimate interaction, and they that they're, you know, I'll date myself, myself, Jay Leno, and they're not. They start to use humor too soon candidates also, as said previously, this is an a codified field. So they think that they can overlay their experience at their current institution or organization onto another institution. And that's mimicking, it's not being creative.

Kelly 3:18
Thank you, Yale, for those, those wonderful tips and those reminders.

Gail Freeman 3:20
I do have a couple more than I'd like to say, just briefly is that okay?

Kelly 3:24
Yeah, of course

Gail Freeman 3:26
picking up with, I always ask the question, what in your background prepares you for the opportunity? You should have a succinct answer for that. And it's not everything I do. You need to talk about your breadth of experience, but your depth of experience in the areas that relate, that are articulated in the position profile. So when somebody answers with everything I've ever done, that's not an answer. That goes to specificity. Well, what I'm trying to say is, to me, that's almost a glib answer, answer, everything I've ever done. You want to tailor your response to the position profile.

Kelly 4:10
I love that advice. I think, you know, sometimes people might assume like, well, it's on my resume. Why? Why don't they know this? To your point, like, you be specific, you have to give examples, you have to prove that you are that right candidate, that you have that prior experience, not just saying, you know, because I have 20 years of experience or whatever it might be. And your points about being prepared and researching the position. And I love your advice about not being afraid to ask, hey, can you clarify that question or what do you mean by that? Because, yeah, if you go down the wrong direction, it could actually negatively affect, you know, reflect, I guess you should say, on candidacy.

Gail Freeman 4:53
The other thing that candidates tend to do is, when asked the question, do we have any questions for you? I've had people ask, do you have parking passes? That's a demonstration of someone that's thinking very granular, but I've heard that many times. be reflective and think about what questions are meaningful to ask. Also, a question that's always asked is what's the next step?

You'll be informed about the next step, but the interview process is not the place to ask that question. The interview process is an opportunity the views that you ask of the, of the, uh, organization are really informative about how much research you've done.

Andy 5:44
I think on that question in particular, I get where you're coming from, you're going to be informed to the process when you get informed to the process. I do believe it's a reflection as employers are evaluating, candidates are evaluating employers,

Gail Freeman 5:59
hmmm,

Andy 5:59
and an employer stands out who is going to be transparent about what the timeline is. They know everybody, everybody cares about this, and as much as you can, either address the timeline or be transparent that I can't address the timeline right now because we're still scheduling this round of interviews, whatever it might be that shows that you feel some accountability, that there's two people, three people, whoever in this room, and we need to respect that everybody's time is important. Um, particularly

Gail Freeman 6:31
is usually do that prior to the interview. So I have a timeline laid out for the candidate and the client.

Andy 6:38
Perfect.

Gail Freeman 6:38
So that's the reason I said that I'm saying that coming at it from a recruiters point of view. Yes, an institution, and they're not using a recruiter, they should have a timeline, and they should inform candidate prior to the meeting.This is our timeline. Going to timeline. That's another matter. But with regards to interviews, also I, I see that people do not follow up within 24 to 48 hours with a thank you letter or email. People need to do that. Many candidates are released from the search because client says to me I didn't receive a thank you note within 24 hours. That's something that's very concerning to people. Also why you left the last organization. Some clients focus on that. I'm not as concerned about why they left. I'm concerned about what do they do while they were there? Because many times it's outside forces made be the reason they've left. It could be during the COVID years where reasons people left during our current situation, the government, we're seeing people exit that are not necessarily strategic exits. It's just their subject to the climate of the of the employment market and our culture today.

Andy 7:58
I think overcoming that objection is definitely something that employers were looking at and they're focusing on. I've always tried to redirect that energy for folks and say, instead of looking at why they left their last position and thinking that's instructive on who they are and what they stand for, find some place where they had a long tenure and find out why they stayed.

Gail Freeman 8:18
Yes.

Andy 8:18
Because that's what's going to tell you more about who they are and who you are. When you stay in an organization for a period of time it's not static, it's dynamic. It changed over time. Find out how it changed and I think you'll learn a lot about the candidate in that instance.

Gail Freeman 8:34
Yes.

Andy 8:35
It's interesting. You often refer to quote-unquote stars, those rare individuals with standout leadership, creativity and character. What personal professional traits consistently set them apart from the folks who aren't considered stars?

Gail Freeman 8:50
Well, they've done their homework and they've done their homework which is one thing. That's the minimum. They're crisp in their answers, they're thoughtful, they have intellectual curiosity, they have follow-through. They go to where people are versus presenting themselves and expecting the organization to come to them. They need to present themselves and be -- to be empathetic is also a star, typically. Someone has a demonstrated track record. Someone who is -- I don't know how to say this, except I've interviewed so many people I can tell if they're genuine or disingenuous. When you're comfortable with your skill set, you're comfortable in your values, you become a star because you can articulate things from a genuine place versus a disingenuous disingenuous. place.

Andy 9:52
One of the things that I find interesting, even stars, don't get every job they apply for, is there something that differentiates the star's process for handling the rejection that's baked into the process that others can learn from?

Gail Freeman 10:03
Yes. They want to be gracious and graceful, and I try always to give people hope. And sometimes it's not about them, it's about the candidate pool that was presented. The candidate pool is more aligned with the values of the client or the organization. and so the individual, it's not them, it's about who you were up against, in terms of the candidate pool.

Kelly 10:38
Gayle, I'm definitely not trying to date you, but you've, you've done a lot of interviews over the years and as Andy and I talk a lot on the podcast. The interviewing process, the job process, it's, it's emotional, it's, it's not an easy thing.

Gail Freeman 10:48
No.

Kelly 10:49
Sometimes there's periods of, of going through hard times or being discouraged, like you might not get that job or you, you know, just something happens. So do you have any other advice? I know you said like it's not always about you, but do you have any advice for candidate navigating along the discouraging search process?

Gail Freeman 11:07
Yes, I think a candidate, I think many times people apply to many things instead of understanding what is they're looking for. Again, going back to, are they clear about what they're looking for? Are they specific about what they're looking for? They can do a lot of reverse engineering and say to themselves, where do I want to be? Do I want to be in a large city? What are my geographical concerns? What are, what kind of organization, where can I make an impact? Am I a scaffler or a scaler? What, what do I like to do? And I think instead of applying to so many positions, focus, focus is important to, I think, feeling better about oneself in the interview process. I, I think that sometimes candidates are mistreated by recruiters that they don't respond. They ghost them,that's not appropriate. We have to all be kinder to each other. And I think that's an important element, you know, when somebody applies to the job and they've taken the time, then we need to acknowledge their time. We have a responsibility as recruiters to do that. We need to give them hope for the next opportunity. I think that's very important.

Andy 12:33
Gal, could you share a standout story, positive or negative that illustrates what to do, or what not do during a job interview?

Gail Freeman 12:42
That's hard for me. I wanted to give a positive story. I could think of negatives, but umm positive example is a candidate who had done their homework. Who said, I thought this was very positive. Said, you know, I, because during COVID, especially in even post COVID, people may hires strictly over zoom. And this candidate volunteered at their expense to fly to the organization and meet them in person. I thought that was extraordinary. And and that person did receive the job offer and did subsequently take the job offer.

Kelly 13:27
That is a positive story. I like that. That's impressive.

Andy 13:29
And figuring out how you translate that sort of demonstration of commitment.

Gail Freeman 13:34
Yes,

Andy 13:35
to me, the is what you're trying to do. Why are you setting your candidacy apart from others? How are you showing that that in a COVID world? That's definitely something that's quite exceptional, but there's, there's a lot of opportunity to do that kind of coming back to your word creativity. a creative place, don't just mimic what everybody else does, think about creatively, how you can communicate your candidacy that differentiates it there, and doing so in a genuine way. Just doing it a way that reflects the shared values you may have with the organization

Gail Freeman 14:12
during COVID. I we did what we call the last walk. So this was when we were washing fruit and candidates would mask up glove up, we would transport them. And then they would have a walk six feet apart from the hiring manager around the block so that they could really get to know each other. So I think that we it that connection is important. We need to move zoom is a lovely tool, team zoom, but we need to move to more connection with each other and that makes for a much better hire.

Kelly 14:53
I love that idea of a walking interview or walking meeting. I think it kind of takes a little anxiety out of the situation as well can if you can walk and talk. So I agree building relationships and connections. It's not always easy to do that over zoom, so thank you for that reminder.

Andy 15:09
even in or in a non-descript conference room.

Gail Freeman 15:13
Yes,

Andy 15:15
where you are kind of you were talking about people's zoom backgrounds and taking it more seriously. I think if you're an employer out there there, how do you want to set the table that promotes the ability to have a real conversation, not one that just kind of feels like it's a transaction?

Gail Freeman 15:32
Yes. Now I can give you a lot of negatives.

Andy 15:37
What maybe we save that for future

Gail Freeman 15:39
podcasts. I like to end on a positive note.

Andy 15:43
Well, we'll find out what National Negative Day is and that's the day we'll run that podcast.

Gail Freeman 15:48
I have some hysterical ones actually.

Andy 15:52
Well, Gail, thank you so much again for being with us. We've really enjoyed our time with you.

Gail Freeman 15:58
Thank you.

Andy 15:59
And hope we get to stay in touch with you.

Gail Freeman 16:01
Of course.

Andy 16:02
If you have any questions for Gail or any thoughts on what works and doesn't work for you from either side of the table, or gosh, if there's other people that are members of the 10,000 interview club, we want to hear from you. So feel free email us at podcast@HigherEdJobs.com or send us a direct message on X @HigherEdCareers.

Thanks again, Gail

Gail Freeman 16:23
Thank you.

Andy 16:24
Thank you for listening and we look forward to talking with you again real soon.