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[00:00:00] Andrew Hibel: Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer, and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

[00:00:14] Kelly Cherwin: And I’m Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy here at HigherEdJobs.

[00:00:18] Andrew Hibel: We're delighted to welcome you to the inaugural HigherEdJobs podcast. Believe it or not HigherEdJobs has just celebrated its 25th anniversary of being live.

And as we contemplated a podcast and doing what we're doing now, we thought back on all the amazing conversations we've had with faculty and staff and students at colleges and universities, and really wanted to be able to share some of that with everybody through this podcast. So, as we sit down today, Kelly, I'm excited to try to recreate some of those conversations that we get the privilege of being a part of on a daily basis with everybody who's part of the HigherEdJobs community.

[00:00:59] Kelly Cherwin: I think we [00:01:00] can both agree that we love to hear people's stories. And I agree with you. We've had the privilege and the honor of talking to so many different people over the years and sharing what we've learned, sharing some of their stories.

[00:01:10] Andrew Hibel: See, it's been 25 years I've actually been reflecting some on our collective story and how HigherEdJobs began and how somehow in 2022, I've landed on a podcast talking about careers in higher education and job search strategy.

Interestingly enough HigherEdJobs was formed somewhat accidentally myself and Eric Blessner and John, Ikenberry were all working in fundraising at Penn State University. And we all had had our initial careers and had our first job searches and landed at Penn State and found ourselves interested in how challenging it was back in 1996 to find a job on the internet easily in higher education.

So we started HigherEdJobs while we were still working at Penn State, but it's interesting to me, my, my story is I was a [00:02:00] tax lawyer who was working in fundraising, helping people in a process that's called planned giving at colleges and universities. And I had been through an internship and worked hard to find this first professional position at a great university.

And I was so excited about being in planned giving and being able to use the skills I had professionally to hear the stories of people who wanted to make a difference in others' lives. And being able to take a little bit of my knowledge and hopefully help them better accomplish what they were hoping to do to change lives and to save lives truly.

And it's interesting to me looking at the journey that's been HigherEdJobs over the past 25 years to see how much that same process of being able to sit down with somebody and understand where they're coming from and what they're hoping to accomplish and what's meaningful to them is also a part of the job search process.

People who find work more meaningful and more engaging and more fun, if I dare say. Really seem to [00:03:00] have a great thing going and are people that others want to work with and be around.

[00:03:04] Kelly Cherwin: Well Andy, I, I must say I'm happy that HigherEdJobs was created by an accident because I, I love being here, but I think it's interesting in our careers.

Sometimes things don't go always, as we plan, I am actually a biology major. I was trained as a biologist and I kind of accidentally fell into education. I went back to get my master's degree in, in management and, and marketing. And ended up finding my first job at a college and, you know, really enjoyed the, the excitement and the passion of being on campus and working with students and working with other staff.

And I eventually started actually teaching there as well. So there's something about higher education that I think that we can agree that there's this energy and love there. So I am so glad that my path has led me through, you know, different administrative roles and teaching which I currently teach. And then obviously being editor here at HigherEdJobs, I love sharing my love and passion for education.

[00:04:00] And like you said, I love sharing the stories of what we've learned over the years, people's different career paths, the ups and downs of job searches, the ups and downs of working on campus. So it's been a pleasure to work here and, uh, yeah, that sounds corny, like, well, I do, I absolutely. I love going to conferences.

I, I love meeting new people. I love talking to our authors. I love sharing job search strategies and tips and things like that with our readers. And now our listeners.

[00:04:28] Andrew Hibel: I think what's a, a lot of fun about interacting with people who are either searching for new coworkers or people who are wanting to be a new coworker.

You get to hear people's stories about, well, first of all, when you hear people's stories, it's always in the past. We in higher education, don't normally speak of our job searches out loud. We try to do it quietly and politely in most instances. So we usually hear about things from folks on a case by case basis about, Hey, I found my last job on higher ed [00:05:00] jobs and that's what we hear about 10 years in.

And now it's really exciting when we're at a conference and somebody comes up and politely says, I found my past two or three jobs on HigherEdJobs. I'm so thankful you guys are out there. Working at HigherEdJobs, you get to see those instances and, and, and those are absolute gifts. So tell us that. We definitely want to hear that.

And if you have a story that you think is cool about finding a job at HigherEdJobs, please you'd make our day by emailing us at podcast@HigherEdJobs.com and telling us that story. And please let us know, if, if it's okay for us to share that story, maybe we'll share some of those stories. Maybe we could even have them on the air for an interview.

That is our producer, Mike. And that's a great idea, Mike. Thank you. I think for us being able to take those experiences that we have, and that energy about your career or your job search and bring those conversations to you with experts in higher education. Kelly and I have been doing these higher [00:06:00] ed careers interviews since 2009.

They're in written format and people in higher education are busy and we get responses back and they're, they're fabulous. But the idea of taking some of those conversations and bringing those to life through the podcast is a big hope. But we also want to offer one small caveat, which is as you know, great people in higher education are extremely busy.

So we might actually only get a few minutes with somebody. So what we'd like to ask you to do is be patient with us. We're going to try to keep this conversational and easy to digest, but if we only get somebody for 15 or 20 minutes, please understand that you might need to adjust a little bit, and it's going to seem quick.

And I, I don't know about you, Kelly, but I've become a huge fan of the audible app and love listening to books through audible. Initially, I would normally listen to it at the 1.0. Normal speed. And I got a little daring. Uh, I was reading an extremely [00:07:00] long book that was 35 hours. I decided to move it up and go crazy to 1.2 speed.

Oh, that is crazy. I know it's nuts, but then sheer and utter madness set in. And I had a friend say a few months ago, you know, you really need to move that up to 1.4 or 1.5 speed. Hibel, you're just too slow at 1.2 speed. And I said, I'll give that a try. So I moved it to 1.4, but then I noticed other issues would pop up.

Issue that popped up was in real life people seemed to talk slower. So I didn't really know what to do. So I went back to my friend. I'm like, what should I do here? Like, I'm at 1.4, it's fabulous. But now my, my real life conversations just are much more difficult. And he said, that's easily solvable. Just start giving the people, you talk to some espresso and everything will sort itself.

I offer that caveat out there to folks that some of our conversations might be hurried. And I'm a little worried today. We have an amazing first guest when we talked about the podcast. This was the person [00:08:00] we wanted. We wanted Dr. Christopher Lee to be able to sit down with us. But today, when we sit down with Chris, Chris is always busy.

Chris is always on the move and I'm sure today will be no different. So whatever app you're listening in, I'm not actually not suggesting go to 1.2 or 1.4, but if you could slow it down to maybe 0.8 and Kelly and I will sound really slow. But that might actually be easier because Chris packs so much information into just a few minutes.

I'm so thankful. He's here with us today.

[00:08:31] Kelly Cherwin: We are getting a lot of bang for our buck with him.

[00:08:34] Andrew Hibel: We've offered one caveat. And in addition to that caveat, thematically, I think there's one part we both feel strongly about. We want to make sure that our community understands. The extreme sensitivity we have to the day in day out, challenges of finding a job.

It's not something that we intend to be glib about in any way. Staying positive and focused on a job search is a very, very challenging process. [00:09:00] And we really take our job seriously to try to keep you informed and to the best of our ability enthused about going into that next application or that next phone screen, or that next zoom or interview with the same enthusiasm you did for the first position. Because the process is a grind.

[00:09:20] Kelly Cherwin: I don't ever want to paint this picture to our, our listeners that we think a job search is easy and it's it's so it's always fun because we all know that it really can be hard.

[00:09:31] Andrew Hibel: What we're hoping to do here is to remind you, yes, it is a grind and you need to remind yourself of that.

But don't think for a moment as we start talking with Chris, that we intend to be at all presumptuous with the real challenges of that process. And in fact, once again, if there's things that we can be doing better to make that process easier for you, please email us at podcast@higheredjobs.com. We really do want to hear from you.

[00:10:00]

We're lucky to be here with Christopher Lee, the chief human resources officer at the college of William and Mary. Thanks for joining us today, Chris.

Chris Lee: My pleasure.

Andrew Hibel: There's no easy way to ease into this, so we're just going to jump into it. What is the most different thing about finding a job at a college or university in the fall of 2021 compared to the fall of 2019.

[00:10:22] Chris Lee: Yeah, I think the biggest differences are, are the obvious one where the committee process, the interaction with the candidate has fundamentally changed once upon a time. It was, you know, on campus all day long, you know, traditional interview process for mid to high level position or faculty position. Now we are using the technologies and tools we've had all along differently.

Once upon a time in the 90s telephone interviews were an innovation and then video interviews were an innovation. Now there asynchronous, uh, video innovations out there where you can record interviews and [00:11:00] those, uh, can be dispatched to a committee, uh, on demand and more interviews are, are occurring that way before we would narrow down from say 10 to six, you know, uh, or, you know, the six to four and then invite people. In many cases now, we're narrowing it down to one or two by a video and then bringing possibly even a single candidate to campus. So the dynamics at times have changed, but the, the protocols are similar, but just used in a different way.

[00:11:29] Andrew Hibel: Do you see a time where we'll go back to the days where two or three candidates be brought to campus, or do you think that the day that the final candidate is going to come to campus, that that's going to be the way the world's going to be from now on?

[00:11:40] Chris Lee: Well, I think it's going to be both, you know, in, in my original book, as you know, search committees, it came out 2014, it talked about nine different search committee structures. Most people use one, possibly two. One of them was this sort of approach where you might bring just one candidate by doing additional and more rigorous [00:12:00] screening methodologies along the way.

Right now people tend to do, or traditionally, people have tended to do screen paper, screen an interview. Maybe you add a telephone or a video interview in there. Now you can do multiple screening methodologies, such as say a portfolio or a questionnaire or, or work samples. So you can do more, uh, rigorous screening methodologies along the way, and then bring one candidate.

I mean, that's cost effective, uh, and it can save some time. So those tools have always been there now we're just using them differently, given their circumstances and our sensibilities have changed, right. Circumstances and sensibilities.

[00:12:35] Andrew Hibel: A as a gen Xer, I can say that our good friend, the phone interview has been a staple of careers all along in higher education. Our friend, the phone interview, really doesn't seem to be doing too well. Not too healthy in this pandemic. What's the prognosis, or maybe what's going to be the phoenix of the phone interview and rise from the ashes of, of phone interviews.

[00:12:54] Chris Lee: Well, I think it's going to be screening initial screening. They will always be there, [00:13:00] right?

Where you have an HR person or member of the committee to do some preliminary fact checking on a candidate's background and interest. That, that will always be there. Will it be heightened in importance or lowered in importance? That's the question. And then when and how will it be used? But I think it will always be there cause I think it is a, a necessary step, right?

Because you know, people may indiscriminately apply for many positions and you want to ascertain their continued interests. You want to make sure people understand and appreciate the job you have to offer. May want to talk salary. You know, those preliminary kind of mating kind of, you know, signals like you really want to do this or not.

I think it will always be there, uh, by, by telephone.

[00:13:39] Andrew Hibel: Maybe it's more of a generational question. Do you feel that when it would've happened by phone for a gen Xer like me, that if you talk to a millennial or a gen Z, that if you're still doing it by phone, it might be perceived as maybe technology is not something that's incorporated into the culture.

And should employers be a little bit more intentional in the medium that they use at that stage?

[00:13:59] Chris Lee: Uh, yeah, I [00:14:00] think so. Because every signal indicates something just like everything a candidate does or says in the selection process is potentially used against them. Right. Uh, because the process is designed to deselect people, right?

You get a whole bunch of people and you're trying to deselect people along the way. The candidate is the opposite. They're trying to decide whether they want to commit their lives to you. Right? So the things you do also signal to them how things are. So if you're not as tech savvy, if you're not using the most modern tools, they may perceive you differently.

Amazingly, HR assessment for an organization recently, and they're not taking applications via applicant tracking system. I, I don't know how that's possible, uh, in 20, uh, you know, 21, but that probably said a lot to potential applicants, right. Where I might not apply if I gotta send in an email in 2021.

So I think those kind of ideas, uh, really are part of the process.

[00:14:59] Kelly Cherwin: a [00:15:00] So I have question about etiquette. I was talking to someone the other day and they said they were in a, a zoom interview and the candidate was obviously on their side. And then the search committee was all in one room together and everyone was wearing masks.

So it was hard for the candidate to actually see who was speaking and couldn't read the face language or the body language. So do you have any advice on effective search committee behavior? Like you said the job candidate is trying to figure out if they want to make a decision to work there. So do you have any advice for them?

[00:15:28] Chris Lee: Well, Kelly, that's a great question. I, I really don't have any specific advice I might offer some general advice. Uh, the, the interesting thing is, as you said, you know, interviewing is a human process, right? And, and the, the general advice is. Everything matters because you are wooing the candidate also, and committees must always realize, yes, we are, you know, we are trying to decide, are they the best for us? But the candidate is deciding the same thing. And sometimes the little things committees say or [00:16:00] do is the reason people turn down offers when people are bickering as a committee. Bad mouthing, you know, the administration talking about the colleagues over dinner.

People say, you know, that's not the kind of group I want to join. So the, the mask etiquette there not been wise enough to use the technology so people can see your eyes right. And see your, see your face. I think that signals something. I'm not sure what it signals, uh, but it signals something. And the key, the key is we have to adapt our, our ways of doing business.

So for example, today, you know, I've been, I was struggling back and forth. I was thinking to myself, I got a jacket right there. Should I put on my jacket? But you know, Andrew's not wearing a tie, so, you know, maybe I should not, we don't know what the etiquette is yet. Right. It's emerging and evolving and we are living this live experiment of what's possible and what will be in the kind of post COVID, you know, workplace era.

And I think interview etiquette is probably one of those. So maybe we, we should write an article about that on the blog there, Kelly. Right. [00:17:00] Talk about, you know, what, what are the variables? Cause I don't think we know the answers yet, but we do know it is a variable.

[00:17:05] Andrew Hibel: I'm not sure I can remember how to tie a tie at this point. One of the things we're hoping to do, Chris is we are really interested in what folks who are listening are thinking. So we really want to encourage you to email us at podcast@HigherEdJobs.com Or reach out to us on Twitter and hit us a message at HigherEdJobs and let us know what you're thinking and we promise we're going to read them and we want to hear, and hopefully your ideas spark other ideas for us that will help us with future podcasts.

So please do share.

[00:17:31] Kelly Cherwin: So Chris, I want to, to end my questioning with referencing your book, it's the definite guide to search committees, but I think we can all see that there's some myths out there from both the job seeker and the search committee. So what are some myths that you can address or dispel?

[00:17:48] Chris Lee: I think the first one we want to talk about is somehow that technology is less than being in person in, in the choice of can I just do video interviews or it's not as legitimate, I [00:18:00] would say, it's both and not either, or, and it depends on the circumstances, just like with, you know, with the committee. Are you going to hire president via video? No. Or could you hire some lower level position? Possibly. So it, I think the circumstances depend it's not on either or it's kind of like the movies versus Netflix at home.

You know, at one time we thought, man, when VCRs came around, uh, people would not go to the movies anymore. Now there's a human dynamic that will always be there. As a preference because we are there, but there are many other ways of engaging that are just as legitimate. The question is when and how will we use those?

So I think that's, you know, part, uh, part of the dynamic.

[00:18:42] Andrew Hibel: One question, I think, and then we're going to close with a much bigger open question. The quick question is obviously we've all in the past months, been working a lot from home and now more people are moving to offices and some colleges and universities are requiring people to come back up to five days a week at this point.

When you're [00:19:00] advertising a position today, what's your best advice as far as what your school's policy is, what they're going to require. And what do you think candidates want that you've been hearing?

[00:19:11] Chris Lee: Well actually, the answer's similar to the other. It is both and organizations who want to go all one way or the other, I think are missing the boat.

There's a reason why workplaces exist. There's a reason why people come together for picnics and things like that. We're social animals and work is, is about people working together. So you have to have the opportunities for, for work. If you're saying no one comes together, I think you are going to lose the culture, the dynamic, the human part.

I mean, that's back to Aristotle. A man is a social being. So the, the two extremes are probably not safe Havens. It's both/and. And the question is where will your organization be on the spectrum? So, as an example, here, we have a principal saying we won't have any 100%, uh, uh, remote positions. [00:20:00] We will, may have 99 and a half percent, but we want the prerogative to say that we have a meeting and event of something happening here on campus, and you are expected to be there.

So, you can't say I'm going to live in Alaska. And then we say, well, we have an employee convocation or a gathering or a meeting and you can't come or you won't come or you can't afford to come. So, we are saying it could be a whole lot. But it can't be 100%. That's our posture today. Over time we may adjust, but I think that's the part of the growing and the learning, how to, you know, uh, manage and, and live in the 21st century.

So I think it is both and not either, or, and we have to figure out where the middle party is. Now that middle part should be according to a system of, in my mind variables to, to consider first is your mission. We're a residential institution. That's different than a, a community college, right? And then the next is the function.

What is the role and purpose of your function? If the student affairs or accounting [00:21:00] is very, very different from advancement. And so. Then that's the second level, third level is the position itself because within accounting and within advancement, there are different positions that interact with customers and others differently.

And then finally, it's the individual employee and their preference and goals around their work. So that scaffolding there helps to make decisions. So it's hard to communicate that to applicants, but at least if you articulate that you have a framework in how you evaluate things, people will understand that it's not willy nilly.

An average manager saying, you know what Chris wants or what Kelly wants. Now it's based within a framework. The organization's using systematically to evaluate that particular work environment in need.

[00:21:43] Andrew Hibel: In the job posting the good, the bad, the ugly, what your policy is, put it in there, then

[00:21:48] Chris Lee: Truth. Otherwise, it's a baiting switch and it doesn't help retention

[00:21:52] Andrew Hibel: Last but not least. Your book did a great job of explaining why you should and how to make diversity a part of the search and selection [00:22:00] process. Could you share your thoughts with us about that? Cause I think there really something everybody should hear.

[00:22:04] Chris Lee: The short answer is there are probably a dozen, you know, steps of the 16 step process that where diversity principles and elements can be woven in. Anything that is added is essentially at some point eliminated or, or dis you know, discarded, it has to be integrated into the process. It must be a part of the process because diversity is a talent management principle.

The idea that you need, you know, nine pitchers on a baseball team is a bad idea. You need a mix of skills, backgrounds, abilities, and perspectives, and it has to be woven into the whole process of how you think about who you bring on. And so if it is integrated then you'll be successful. If it's an add on it will be perceived to be a hassle or something additional or discretionary.

So it has to be integrated.

[00:22:53] Andrew Hibel: Thank you so very much, Chris, I think whether it's working at a college or university in 2021, or [00:23:00] it's figuring out how to incorporate diversity or working with a search committee, I think it's just wonderful to get your thoughts on those things.

Chris Lee: My pleasure.

[00:23:07] Kelly Cherwin: Thank you, Chris. I really enjoyed our conversation.

[00:23:12] Andrew Hibel: Thank you, Chris. And as I mentioned earlier, we want to hear what you have to say. Please email us at podcast@higheredjobs.com or tweet us @HigherEdJobs.