Andy Hibel (00:03)
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs Podcast. I'm Andy Hibel the Chief Operating Officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly Cherwin (00:09)
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy. Today we are joined by Dr. Deborah J. Cohan, professor of sociology at the University of South Carolina, Buford, and the author of The Complete You, Over 100 Lessons for Success in and out of the college classroom. And welcome to Wherever We Are, a memoir of family caregiving and redemption. Her work as a public sociologist includes writing for Psychology Today. Her work as a public sociologist includes writing for Psychology Today, and she is regularly featured in national media.

She's also the author of one of our recently published HigherEdJobs articles, General Education Deserves a Facelift. And today we'll be talking about the value of general education, the challenges surrounding how it's perceived, and what faculty and administrators can do to help students better understand its purpose. Deborah, thank you so much for joining us today.

Deborah Cohan (00:57)
Thank you for having me. It was great to be here.

Kelly Cherwin (00:59)
Well, I look forward to the conversation. let's get into our discussion. So Deborah, what are you seeing on your campus or in the work that you do that made you think, you know, that we really need to kind of reevaluate and talk about general education right now?

Deborah Cohan (01:14)
Well,

I think there are outside forces as well as inside forces in the higher education that are making it so that the liberal arts especially has to kind of find itself, position itself. And as a sociologist, you know, I am teaching classes that are, you know, one of my classes does fulfill a general education requirement and I see how often students are coming into the class with the simple goal of getting into the professional program that they really want.

to get their degree in. it's helping them to see that it's not just get this class, check the box and move on, but that there's actually some intrinsic value to some of these classes, that there's ⁓ a real ⁓ kind of method to the madness. There's a real reason to have ⁓ these requirements existing and that they have for decades and decades. But it is seen as cumbersome and I think

in the social political climate that we're in, it seems even more important to really underscore the importance of general education and to help students see them in a new way, as well as helping their parents see them in a new way.

Andy Hibel (02:30)
That's a great way to describe, I'm looking to knock out my gen eds. Yeah. Like that is a very common refrain you hear from freshmen in college. I'm just knocking out my gen eds. And I think that's a great explanation, but what do you think is driving the misconception of looking at the gen eds as something that needs to be knocked out as opposed to savored?

Deborah Cohan (02:53)
Yeah, well, I think that maybe that kind of to elaborate on what I was saying before that such an assault as we know on higher education outside forces are crashing down on us in higher ed. And there's that sense of like, well, what is college all for? What is it about? Why do we even need it? What's the point? Just get the degree and get out of there and move on and get a job and get a high paying job. And the push for that kind of professionalization

seems to often overshadow the intrinsic value of a class like an English class, an art history class, a sociology class, whatever it might be. But I think it's because of the larger problem. And I will say that I read an article, it was after you invited me to be on this podcast, and I was reading the New York Times and in David Brooks's last column,

his farewell column, he did such an incredible job of talking about this. I'm actually going to, if it's okay, I want to actually quote from this article because he's really talking about this, like loss of shared values, loss of a sense of culture, loss of a sense of a shared understanding of what he's referring to in a way is just like a loss of a real sense of humanism. And it was interesting with my article coming out,

just a couple of weeks before this one, reading this and then thinking about this podcast, it was just, you know, it certainly just reinforced it. He says, one of the most exciting things in American life today is that a humanistic renaissance is already happening on university campuses. I might say not enough, but okay. He says Trump has been terrible for the universities, but also perversely wonderful. Amid all the destruction, he has provoked university leaders into doing some rethinking.

Maybe things have gotten too pre-professional. Maybe colleges have become too model culturally progressive. Maybe universities have spent so much effort serving the private interests of students that they've unwittingly neglected the public good. I'm now seeing changes on campuses across America from community colleges to state schools to the ivies. The changes are coming in four buckets. And I think this part is really significant. He says, first of profusion of courses and programs that try to nurture

character development, and moral formation. Second, courses and programs on citizenship, training, and civic thought. Third, programs to help people learn to reason across difference. Fourth, courses that give students practical advice on how to lead a flourishing life. Now, I'll tell you, for the first time ever, I started offering this year a course called the Sociology of Adulting for this exact reason.

doing exactly what he's talking about. Like, it's a class really on how to live a better life. It's a class to help them build their cultural capital. It's you know, it's nurturing character development. It's nurturing a sense of how to live in community and break through some isolation. So it's interesting. I do think he's right that there's more awareness of this on campus and the need to help socialize our students to be part of a vibrant citizenry.

that goes even beyond what might've existed before because we have such a, we're like on the verge of nihilism, right? So it's almost like the sense of with all that's ⁓ in disarray and all that's lost and all of the kind of enemy in our culture, I think, you know, he's pointing to this need for shared culture as like an antidote to all that. And I also am pointing to general education. ⁓

as an antidote to that as well. The issue is obviously helping people see the value in that and also helping people see that it's not just for the liberal arts. It's really, I mean, that's a direct obvious one that really everybody benefits from that regardless of discipline. Like if you're in hospitality or business or nursing or whatever it may be.

Kelly Cherwin (07:13)
Deborah, thanks for that. And I really appreciate that the class you said, ⁓ Sociology of Adulting, that's a really cool class. all of us in this room here have college students currently. And I will admit, and obviously we were once freshmen as well, and I've kind of taken the approach of like some of these classes are like, let's check the box, let's get this done. I've had, this topic is so interesting to me because I've had this conversation with my sophomore in college about,

why these classes are important. And it's interesting having a conversation before he took, like he had to take a film class, or not had to, he chose to take the film class. He has taken sociology, theology, art, and on the other side, coming out of it, he's like, wow, now I get it. Like he's looking at films, lighting, ⁓ sound so differently, going to an art museum. it's, you see it after you go through it, but like you're saying like, how do we kind of,

get that value? How can we perpetuate that the value is there? So I want to ask one of your main points is that general education creates shared experiences and community across majors, no matter if it's like my son is a STEM, you know, or whatever major might be. So why is that shared curriculum so essential to the undergraduate experience today?

Deborah Cohan (08:32)
Yeah, I mean, definitely piggybacked off of what we just talking about, just because the sense of, you know, creating like shared vocabulary as well, shared meaning interpretations. I mean, students, you know, are reporting today more than ever before how lonely they are, how anxious they are and how depressed they are. And we're hearing that just, you know, it's abundantly clear. And I think that the more that they have these

places and experiences and opportunities to be in community, the more we can try to counter some of that and some of that sort of doom scrolling in their room by themselves stuff and eating alone and all the other ways in which they're really, as the sociologist, Phillip Slater said, you know, decades ago, it's almost like a pursuit of loneliness. So not only are they maybe truly struggling with some mental health issues, but they're also not doing a lot.

They don't seem to know how to do a lot to get out of their own way to help themselves to connect. so creating every type of structure possible to get them more comfortable with connecting and being in conversation. So connectivity between their peers, between students and faculty as potential mentors, and also connecting ideas. Cause I think personally, I think there's nothing more exciting than when you see the students say, ⁓

I was actually just talking about this in my history class. Or the student who last week said to me that something that they're learning in my theory class is connecting to something in a ⁓ crime class. And he was demonstrating that connection. And I thought, yeah, this is really what college is about, cultivating that kind of connectivity. And so then ⁓ a lot of times also some of these general education classes

They might be connected to other things in the community and certain events and things that students can attend. But I think that you, your point about your own sophomore and sort of having, having to kind of get through the class to then reflect back on the value of the class. That's probably just the inherent issue here is that I don't know that there's ever going to be like one way to create the kind of advanced buy-in that you're sort of alluding to in a sense.

It seems like one of those things that it's only later that someone can say, wow, okay, that was helpful or that really did impact me. And sometimes when we're in the midst of teaching this stuff, I think we also have to show them different examples where that might be true. you know, I'm thinking about like, I have a real passion for art. And so I'm thinking to myself how well that has served me.

in conversations out in the world. And I would like to think that a student maybe could go to a job interview and they see, I don't know, maybe there's a sculpture in the lobby, maybe there's a painting hanging in an office. And it sort of, it would be amazing if a student could say, ⁓ you know, that's a Mary Cassatt or that's a, you know, that looks like a Chagall or that whatever it is, just to help students create some kind of fluency around.

around culture, around music, the arts, that sort of thing. I think that served them really, really well. But our students are coming to campus having read less than ever before, not reading while they're there. And so there are so many strikes against us. And so it's sort of like, do think that the general education classes really do, we're trying to help them with issues like critical thinking.

you know, general awareness of the world outside themselves, a sense of, you know, empathy and humanity and creativity and all of that and like building on ideas the way that, you know, that's how culture is made, right, you know, like building on previous ideas and creating new ones and the synergy of all of that. But it just might be one of those things that you don't really realize the value until until it's over or you find a different

type of value than you were supposed to find. Like in the article, I referenced taking this physics class when I was an undergraduate at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, and I was really not right for a physics class. But we had to, you know, we had to fulfill that science requirement. And yeah, I don't remember being excited about taking it, except that I heard the professor was good and good as an understatement. mean, this woman was phenomenal. She was used to the fact that students

didn't want to take her class. really, I mean, she taught a class called physics and the arts, which counted for the science. And it was nicknamed physics for poets. And I took that. And I still remember sitting and watching her. She was an incredible physical shape. And she would like jump on the table and do these demonstrations of, you know, objects in motion. And it was just, it was so incredible. And I remember saying to her in her office at the end, I mean, there were like 300 people in the class, but by then I,

You know, I knew I wanted to be a professor and I did go to her office hours. I also needed a lot of extra help. So I often saw her and I said to her, I don't know that I'm going to remember any of this physics. Like I really don't. It's not really where my head is, but I can tell you one thing for sure. Everything that I've learned so much about teaching and about teaching and learning from you. And that's the truth is like, I didn't get out of that requirement. What I was supposed to get, guess.

Cause I really can't tell you a lot of the equations and things like that. But what I did get was the impact of a professor at a moment when it might've looked like drudgery and she made it something magical looking. And I think that's an important lesson too. So, you know, I think there's both. think there's the like getting to the end and reflecting going, wow, either that wasn't so bad or I even got something out of it. Or I can use something from this, but also.

I might not have even gotten what I was supposed to get, but I got something entirely different that's entirely cool also, which was the case of my example.

Andy Hibel (14:58)
It's so interesting how those experiences inform us and inform those decisions. And it would be such a gift in real time to realize that that's what's happening when it's happening. But so many times you need to experience it first to really realize that. I kind of had the phenomenon in law school where income tax was a required class that everybody had to take. And there were two sections. I forgot who taught the other section. And the other section was a

taught by Professor Jagan and the non-Professor Jagan section always filled up the fastest. Everybody was afraid of Professor Jagan. Nobody completely got income tax. Everybody avoided it. I couldn't avoid it. I had to go into Professor Jagan's class and I not only took that class, I took two other classes with Professor Jagan and it completely changed my trajectory of what I wanted to do with my law degree because I had to do it. And thankfully,

For the second and third class, I was able to have that perspective and knew how much I relished it. And it was quite a gift at that point. I'm struck by the fact that in academia, sometimes we have a really difficult time dispelling misconceptions about certain things. And then I think what you're really trying to get at in the article is how do we dispel this myth? How do we all say

that this is not the part that you want to knock out specifically. There's no part you want to knock out. It all has value, but you need to enjoy it. And I think another area that I still think really needs a lot of work is student conduct. There is such a common misperception with student conduct that this is all about discipline and punishment, where it's all about education and learning from it. Huge benefit. mean, it's not often you want to say about your child,

Hey, I really hope they fail. I'd like to kind of put a little caveat. I really hope they fail while they're in college. I think particularly in a pre social media era, you could fail in a grand fashion in college in just about any way. And it left no mark. And I still think in many ways it doesn't leave a mark, but until you're involved in the judicial process and the student discipline process, you really don't understand that that's the purpose. And I think it's the same thing here.

Why do you think that we can't, we haven't, at least to this point, gotten everybody on campus singing from the same songbook? And what is the role that faculty and administrators can play in reframing this mindset for general education courses?

Deborah Cohan (17:42)
Yeah, wow. ⁓ I love so much of what you said about that. Yeah, there's so much I could say. Yeah, I I think that student conduct, I will say that the student conduct piece is huge. And one of the interesting things that I'm noticing on my campus, which is actually really incredibly disappointing, I have to say, are students who say, it shouldn't matter what they do or say or write or anything, because it's a gen ed, what does it matter?

Like, gen eds are for using AI. Gen eds are for not putting your all in. Gen eds are for like egregious behavior, essentially. And like, I'll save my good behavior and I'll save my best work for the other classes, because those are the ones that matter to me and to my major. That's kind of the storyline I'm hearing from students. And there's so many reasons why that is so misguided.

because it's like the habits that they can learn, the habits of being and the habits of learning that they can acquire in a Gen Ed class are the very things that help them succeed in their major. So your comment about student conduct is just, I wouldn't have really brought up student conduct myself on this, but it's just, it's like beautiful and appropriate that you did because it's huge. It's like, in a sense, general education classes are about, I mean, in a sense they're about conduct, about conduct as a citizen. ⁓

Like I just had an office hour earlier today talking about this little student about her disrespect to what we were doing in class and disrespect to the educational process. And actually it's disrespecting herself, the kinds of things that were going on. But it's like getting them to see that and to see how a class that's all about the self and society, which is what sociology is, is about helping them to see that. So I just, love that you brought up conduct because I think it's

That's huge as well, but it's just this idea that like, how did you, how do they think that they can, they don't have to take it seriously in some classes. Like either because they've decided it's a blow off or because they, they think it should be easy because it shouldn't be a barrier to them because it's been constructed as the discipline and punishment like you're describing instead of the reward for a flourishing life or something.

Andy Hibel (20:01)
It's interesting because what you're saying is spot on because we know Kelly, Mike and our child all listen to the podcast religiously. ⁓ That's tongue in cheek. My child, my child has told me that they listen, but the only reason they do so is it puts them to sleep. ⁓ Yeah.

Deborah Cohan (20:23)
I'm glad she parted me and I'll pull in her house.

Andy Hibel (20:26)
If you're falling asleep right now, please wake up. But the idea of these blow off classes or blowing off this class is seen as a victimless crime. But really, you're the victim. Like you're only punishing yourself by blowing off these classes. And I would say the biggest punishment is having a preconceived notion going into this class that you're not going to have an open mind. If you have an open mind in life,

and experience everything, have an open mind to it. You might find out there's things you love. I love art now. I'm sorry to report Deborah, college didn't do it for me, but my wife, she opened my mind to it. I can tell you, shkala is not one of my favorites, but I love Chihuly. You know, there's so much.

Deborah Cohan (21:13)
While I do, I'm like Julie more too. But I used, I don't even know how I came up with Chicago. It was just in my head at the moment.

Andy Hibel (21:21)
I hope truly will forgive us. But I think that that's the part. And I think that's a really good part to now kind of flip it. How do we all sing on the same songbook that it's not a victimless crime?

Deborah Cohan (21:32)
Yeah, I mean, I guess there's just so many different ways that that message would have to come through. And probably, you know, even an orientation in the summers, you know, which is the minute students are meeting with their first, you know, in their first advising appointment, even changing the language, I I definitely know advisors who say, let's try to help you get rid of, you know, these requirements, let's knock out these, let's, you know, all that kind of stuff. So it, it requires a reframing.

almost like before the student has gotten to campus. And I also, I'm not even sure that the phrase general education is even helpful, which is something I raised in the article. To me, that might even be the part of the problem, that it just makes it so generic and so like this messy array of classes that somehow everyone has to just have a certain number of them to move on. I don't know that that's helpful either. Like, I mean, in a way,

it seems like when we really start to think about general education requirements. So to me, just maybe general education requirements is part of what needs to be changed is ⁓ the title. And then the other thing that I think would really enhance the messaging majorly is if there was just more robust programming on a lot of campuses. This is not true of all campuses. But when I was in college, there were tons of

performances, lectures, author talks, like just all sorts of things to get involved in. Now I was at a very big university, it's a very vibrant place, it always has been and it still seems to be that way. But at smaller campuses,

less well-funded campuses, there's still a need, there's an urgency, and there should always be an urgency, I think, bringing those kinds of things to campus. And frankly, it's kind of an intellectual and emotional wasteland without them. And without them, those general education classes have a hard time moving forward on their own. Like I think, at my school, other schools, I think they would be better supported if we had

like musicians coming, mean, really like amazing stuff, really profound lectures. When I was a student on campus, we had speakers like all kinds of speakers, you Bell Hooks, Steinem, don't know, Yo-Yo Ma coming to play. I mean, all these kinds of different people. mean, some of those are really expensive to bring, but there are a lot of others who aren't. And I guess the thing is, is that we need to do more of that because that's part of building cultural capital. That's also part of creating

a campus community. It's part of creating a shared experience. It's part of appreciating the cultural arts. There's there's so much to it. You know, it's kind of amazing now that we have so much media and so much social media and such destruction of journalism, as is true so recently with the post, there's just less and less of a sense of like, cohesive language and thought. It's like

No one's getting their news from the same places. It's like people have their own versions of reality. If they come to college wanting their reality confirmed, which I always thought college was to do the opposite, to have your sense of reality challenged. And so, you know, that's where I really think bringing in interesting, diverse perspectives, authors, artists, whomever, to campuses helps to create a much more thriving community.

And it seems to be like one of the first things that administrators skip because it's expensive or, you know, it's harder to coordinate or there's other things that seem to come first. But I actually think those are so much more important than most of the things that are planned on campuses. mean, you go to campuses today and now they have like build-a-bear stuff. I mean, it's really a lot of juvenile activities. It's like, where's all this other cool stuff? And it shouldn't rely on like the schools in a city.

to have access to that. should be anybody at any school can have access to those things that would enrich their life and their experience.

Kelly Cherwin (25:52)
So Deborah, thanks so much for explaining all that. And I love the options or your suggestions of, you know, bringing diverse authors and poets to campus. I was just curious, again, to reference my son in his art class, he would get extra credit for going and attending a lecture. But is this common that maybe on your campus or other campuses that, you know, maybe the biology professor gives extra credit if they go to that art ⁓ talk or vice versa, you know, a theology class, you're gonna get extra credit if you go hear a

physics lecture. Is that something you've heard of? mean, again, I know you talked about the budget and how you have to have the buy-in from the leadership to do those things. But the other idea that had there was maybe this isn't quite related to all this question, you know, we're talking to truly their adults, but and correct me if I'm wrong, we're not our brains are not truly developed until we're 25. So we're also trying to sell something to them that they

might aren't quite ready to really to buy into. So, ⁓ sorry, that's like a couple different questions there. So I don't know if you have thoughts about bringing in cross collaboration, I guess on campus, and then also the maturity of the brain.

Deborah Cohan (27:04)
⁓ Yeah, I would say that, you you raise an interesting point about extra credit. I mean, I wasn't, when I was suggesting those kinds of ⁓ activities and events on campus, I wasn't really thinking about extra credit. Although I will say that if those events existed on campus, I could see faculty using that as like a, just an incentive. Because it's a little bit of like, well,

if you give them that instrumental reason to get there and get something out of it that they really want to raise their little grade and their class, you know, that maybe they'll get something else much bigger out of it. You know, it's sort of like that. Maybe they'll even be introduced to a book they want to read or a new idea or a song or whatever. So I think that that's, can, the extra credit is such a narrow transactional kind of a thing, but if it,

If it does open the door to something larger, then maybe then the student hadn't opened up mind to get something out of it. And so, good. Like then that's great. But I would like to see these things on campuses regardless of the more instrumental transactional, like get extra credit. But if, yeah, mean, if faculty could do that and, you know, encourage

people to go to things that are like far afield from what they're teaching, but that there might be value in it for whatever other reasons, I think that would be great. But I also, I think that sometimes depends on the type of school, how siloed faculty are from each other to know about these offerings, how well things are advertised, ⁓ you know, so many different issues. But I'm sure that

Different faculty in different departments would probably love all different sorts of things brought to campus. But it's more that I just think we need a wider array of stuff. I mean, of course, a lot of this changed not just because of the funding, but because of ideological stuff of, know, oh, if we bring this person, we'll have to bring that person. If we bring this person, this will get, you know, canceled or this. So there's a whole host of other issues going on with that. But I do think

that the single best thing we can do with our students is to help them create conversations and relationships. And those are done through community. Those are done through connecting over something like, let's say, poetry, music, the arts, whatever it might be, physics, whatever. And we have to have more places where they can do that, especially when campuses are like struggling with

keeping more kids, you know, living on campus, creating more residential communities, also dealing with the proliferation of online classes, hybrid classes. I know a lot of students who are living on campus, but they are taking their online classes, they're taking hybrid classes, and they're working. And they don't do anything else. Maybe they go to the gym. It's like the animals wouldn't know if something was on campus. And so I think that's a shame. think that, you know, part of the...

I mean, that's part of what I write in my book of that, you know, so much of learning is occurring outside of the classroom in these sorts of moments ⁓ and experiences. And so I guess extra credit can get them there or something like that can get them there or making it even like some schools have requirements where students have to attend a certain amount of programs throughout the year. I've heard about this at a couple of different institutions. I don't know, I have mixed feelings about that, but there is the...

the idea of like, if you're required, maybe eventually they're gonna learn to like it and then wanna do it voluntarily on their own. But I also think there's something to just, you know, telling them, it's up to you, whatever you make of it. And I'll just as a sort of a side to this, but not an aside, is that I teach this double section of intro to sociology. I've been doing this for years and years. And in the past number of years, I've...

totally changed my tune with this and I don't require attendance, but I do require participation. And so if a student wants to take the class fully online, they can. If they want to come and meet me in person with their peers, Wednesdays and Fridays, they can. They can come drop in. It's sort of like in a way, it's kind of old fashioned college, know, come if you want, don't come if you don't want. Most students don't come.

because I'm not taking attendance. But what I have said is, if you want to come, no electronics, no phones, no nothing. Don't come if you're sick, and come only if you've read and if you're prepared to discuss. So I sit around, ⁓ it's like a big, huge conference table. every student had a book yesterday. We were all talking, and everybody asked interesting questions, and it was like,

exactly what college should be, but it's kind of what college isn't anymore. But it made me realize, like, it's possible. It's possible to do this. But it's funny because nobody gets any points for coming. But I have the people who come every single time all semester because they have found something valuable. Of course, there are students who don't. But I guess my point is that in a time when we have so much also available to them just purely online, I think

having places where they can have community. Like in my case, they don't have electronics. So they have to look at each other. In fact, we reshape the classrooms so that they cannot be seeing each other's back. Like they have to form in a circle. They have to learn how to have a conversation. And I tell them why I'm doing this. I mean, I do explain it. And I think that's part of the answer to Andy's question about ⁓ part of the messaging, getting on the same.

you know, creating the same song to sing from. I think we have to also explain our rationale to students sometimes. Like, I'm encouraging you to do this because I see how much you all struggle with having conversations. So I want to be that person who helps you practice how to do this, how to look someone in the eye and have a tough conversation about racism, about violence, about all the things we talk about in sociology, because I want them to be.

like better off than the rest of the society right now for how these conversations are unfolding.

Andy Hibel (33:49)
can't imagine a better place for us to conclude the conversation than that. I honestly, when you kind of look at the attendance part, everything about that, at the end of the day, you're only the age you are for today. And when you're in college, you have a limited number of days, little over a thousand and four years. Go squeeze every ounce of juice out of those days, guys. Like that is exactly what this is for.

And if you need a little push, which I did back in the day at times, some days you don't really feel like going to class. get it. But I can tell you, I want you to think of my friend Howard. My friend Howard in college was a little bit insane. By a little bit, I mean a lot. I went to class very regularly, but then one day my sophomore year, I discovered that Howard kept a record of classes made, classes missed. like, ⁓ that's interesting. And I'm like, Howard.

I'm going to do a better percentage of the semester than you." He's like, no way you are. And we play some idiotic wager on it. And I can tell you, forget about what I won or didn't win. I never lost to Howard in five semesters after that because more than anything else, I wanted to beat Howard. But I feel like the best part I got from that was not beating Howard, although I would never tell him that. It was all those classes I got to experience in person. And if you go to class,

and you engage with class, you're going to get so much more than anything else. And that the curiosity you may have, the ability to ask questions when you don't understand things with a real dialogue. People love, whether it's your classmates or your instructors love to do that. Be a part of it. Lean into it. It's a joy. It's not a chore. And if it is a chore, find out why you feel it's a chore and try to resolve that issue.

Deborah Cohan (35:51)
Thank you. think that's a perfect message.

Kelly Cherwin (35:53)
Debra, it's been so nice having you on the podcast today. really enjoyed our conversation.

Deborah Cohan (35:58)
I did too. It was wonderful to be with both of you. Thanks for your engaging question. You really care about it.

Andy Hibel (36:03)
We appreciated your amazingly engaging answers as well. And thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed this podcast. And if you have questions or thoughts you'd like us to share with Deborah, send them to us at podcast@higheredjobs.com or send us a direct message on X @HigherEdCareers. Thank you for listening. We look forward to talking again with you real soon.