Andy Hibel (00:02.296)
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly Cherwin (00:08.325)
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the Director of Editorial Strategy. Today we are joined by Dr. Daniel Moser, a communication expert, performance coach, and professor of practice at Northwestern University, who works with students, faculty, and professionals to help them think clearly, speak powerfully, and perform at their best in high stakes moments. Daniel brings together experience from performance, education, and organizational communication to help people navigate interviews, presentations, and professional conversations with confidence. Thank you, Daniel, for joining us today.

Daniel Moser (00:37.43)
It's pleasure. Thank you, Kelly. Thank you, Andy.

Kelly Cherwin (00:40.238)
So we're gonna be talking about managing interview anxiety, presentation anxiety, and what it means to perform at your best under the pressure or the need to be on. So, Daniel, you work with professionals preparing for interviews and job talks and other presentations. So what intrigued you or what drew you to this line of work?

Daniel Moser (00:56.782)
Great, my origin story on this would be that I have a theater background. So I went to NYU, professional conservatory acting training program, and was a professional actor, New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, and ultimately refined my map and went to Northwestern University where I joined the doctoral program in performance studies. Now, performance studies is, you can look at that as between theater on one hand and anthropology on the other.

So rather than plays and playhouses, we're talking about looking at life as a dramatically enacted thing, how cultures perform, how people behave in different circumstances. So I just really opened up the lens of performance and started looking at life really as a dramatically enacted thing. And ultimately when I was on faculty at Northwestern, I was invited over to the engineering school to look at some of the presentations and the senior capstone.

programs. And the faculty was noticing that we have great, brilliant students, but the ways that they were able to articulate after four years of undergraduate experience what they knew was not exactly polished or representative of the representation that they wanted from their students. So they asked me to come in and see what I can do. basically through a directorial lens, I started working with students and trying to

sort of celebrate what they were doing organically well and just mitigating the things that were getting in their way. Basically, they were relying on instinct or inspiration of the moment and they had no technique. So why would they be good at something they never studied? So I ultimately was teaching communication courses for engineers and ultimately then did professional and presentation skills workshops across the university. So met the medical school, know, law school, business school, every

every entity over there using my expertise in professional presentation and helping them loosen up and celebrate the things that they're doing well and just trying to eliminate the things that are getting in their way.

Kelly Cherwin (03:03.554)
love that approach of celebrating and enhancing what they're doing well because, you know, giving presentations and being interviewed, it's definitely, you know, anxiety ridden. So it's like if you can say, yes, you're doing all these things, but actually we can make you a little bit better by just doing this. So I love that approach. So thank you for explaining your background on that.

Andy Hibel (03:20.398)
I think your experience speaks well to this idea that job seekers feel confident in what their experience is and their skills, but not necessarily in presenting themselves or telling their story. When someone says they're not good at interviews or networking, where do you usually begin and what patterns do you look for in how they show up or approach the conversation?

Daniel Moser (03:43.746)
Well, if they say they're not good at something, of course, I really listen closely to how they're saying that and really seek more. What does that mean to not be good? Often it means that they don't have any structural way of with a beginning and a middle and an end or starting something with context and then unpacking and then concluding, or that they're just ruled by nerves that...

when they're in a difficult situation or uncomfortable situation, they freeze, they forget, or they ramble on, or they do these kinds of things that are actually, there are techniques to learn to not be in those situations. So I try to demystify what nerves are, right? So, you know, for 150,000 years of human evolution, the idea of standing in front of a group of people and being one person,

is like the idea of that, am one, you are many, you could kill me. And so all these basic pawns brain, the amygdala responses of fight, flight or freeze are just coursing through you and you have no technique to override those. what I'm telling them is, look, you're not going to get rid of 150,000 years of human evolutionary response, but what we can do is an intellectual override and

you know, let's come to grips with it. Like that's not likely to happen, right? So people are nervous because they're afraid of being humiliated or judged or, you know, embarrassed. So psychologically reframing is a big part of what I do. So rather than like an actor, a bad actor, someone who's like always thinking about themselves, how am I being perceived? How am I being perceived? So what I would suggest to them is take the attention off of yourself and put it on what needs to be done.

Like, what is the occasion? Why were you asked to be here? And then being generous of spirit and like, you were there for a reason. You were asked there for a reason to deliver something of value to your organization, to the people in front of you. So thinking of what you're doing as a generous act, it's not about you, it's about them. And you are here to help them gain as much information as you can possibly give them in the short amount of time that you have. So it's a kind of a psychological reframing.

Daniel Moser (06:03.896)
And I just ask them what gets in their way. And then we deal with it step by step. And then we practice, practice, practice until their unconscious incompetence becomes conscious incompetence becomes conscious competence until it's ultimately unconscious competence. So that's the role of consciousness and skill learning. So where are we? We go through a technique and a process and we change through habit and practice.

Kelly Cherwin (06:30.488)
Well, Daniel, I'm not going to try to repeat what you just said there, but it totally, it does make sense. And I like the fact that you kind of are allowing people a space to say, this is normal as humans, this is normal, but there's ways that we can practice to be more competent and be, you know, less stress. So you talked about kind of speaking to, to the audience. So that kind of leads into my next question. Hired candidates oftentimes need to translate, you know, their passion, their research, their experience into

a clear message for mixed audiences that sometimes it's faculty or it's non-faculty or it's people who know nothing about their research. So what strategies can help people turn that knowledge into clear answers when that anxiety kind of is building up and takes over?

Daniel Moser (07:13.646)
Right. Recognizing that there is a mixed audience, right? We're talking about audience analysis, right? And who's in the room and what is the level of sophistication about the topic at hand? You can talk about nuclear engineering and nuclear power to nuclear engineers or to second graders. You can, right? But you would use different verbiage and different metaphors and different analogies. You would meet them where they are. And I think it's important to realize who's in the room and what's the level of sophistication.

Usually there's a mixed audience though, so you want to talk to the highest level. But often even say in engineering or the sciences, even people in your field may not know exactly what you're talking about unless there are people in your lab that are joined at the hip with you. So high context at the beginning, what am I saying? Who is this for? Um, physicists and mathematicians use the same word, but it means different things sometimes. So

Trying to talk at the high level, I would say, and then talk about at another level. And that often means using stories and analogies and metaphors and examples to ground it in different places. So you're not leaving anyone out of it, right? Just bringing everyone along with it.

Kelly Cherwin (08:29.608)
That makes total sense to make sure that you bring everyone in. And sometimes you don't know what that audience, what their knowledge is. is it okay to do check-ins? I know you said storytelling, but do you ask for feedback? Would that be appropriate?

Daniel Moser (08:46.318)
Well, often if you're getting the nod and the lean in, you know you're connecting, right? If you're getting that and you know, there's always times for questions and there's all, and I often say, look, I look at this as a dialogue. If something is occurring to you, please let me know. And you know, I can make the connective tissue or explain it in a different way that lands. Or you may say at the beginning, I'll take questions at the end. please take notes that I'm happy to talk about all those things. You're never going to, you know, at any

time, 10 % of your audience isn't listening at all. knowing that means sometimes you have to repeat yourself, but you're looking for those elements of consternation or quizzical looks. You're reading the audience. So while I may be doing the majority of the talking, it's a dialogue. They're giving me feedback, right? And I'm picking up on every movement of the head tells me something if they're with me or not. So if I have my

hand on my chin and I see my audience with their hand on their chin, that means, that's evaluative. They're listening, they're processing. Now, if that movement of the hand on the chin turns into the side of the face on the palm, that means I'm losing them and that means I need to do something different to re-arrest their attention. Some constant modulation of who's with me and who's not. And it's kind of on the fly gauging

the temperature. Am I getting them to laugh? Are they reacting? Am I hearing these things? I just need to change directions or volume or spaces because I'm doing my level best to get them to stay with me and get as much as they can as long as I'm speaking, right? I want to make it easy for them to stay connected. It's very difficult to stay present as we know. We're always thinking about where I was and where I'm going.

So being in the moment, and it's my job to help them be there as much as possible. So I would say just be interested and interesting. And if you're a teacher, it's basically the same thing. You can't afford to be bored. You gotta help them get it as much as possible. So being dynamic and passionate about what it is is infectious. You set the emotional tone for the room whenever you speak. So that's what I try to bring to it to make everybody alive and alert to what's happening in the moment.

Daniel Moser (11:10.794)
I'm producing this play or the show that makes it easy for them to get as much value as they possibly can.

Kelly Cherwin (11:18.562)
love the idea of taking the temperature and kind of pay attention to the cues like you're saying, like is someone getting ready to doze off? I think that's fantastic advice. And I will say, I smiled when you said like 10 % of the room is usually not listening. I've often told that to my kids when they were giving speeches for speech class in high school. I'm like, no one's really listening to you, so just go up there and do your best. And they're all nervous about doing their own speech, so no one's really listening to you.

Daniel Moser (11:46.082)
That's for sure.

Andy Hibel (11:48.408)
Thanks, Daniel. I think you really spoke through the ideal sort of situation where you really take control of the conversation in a way that helps best communicate what you're trying to say. But I can say when you're under a lot of pressure and you're speaking a lot of times extemporaneously, you can't script an entire conversation as much as you'd want to. There's a lot of improv in this production, if you will.

sometimes you have a hard time coming up with the right example. And if you're talking about your teaching, if you're a faculty member or leadership or problem solving in real world terms, and you struggle to find the right example on the spot, what techniques do you recommend for organizing thoughts and sharing a clear, confident story in the moment, even though your mind is drawing blanks?

Daniel Moser (12:44.396)
Right, one hopes it doesn't go completely blank because you prepare, right? Prepare, prepare, prepare is the way really to take care of your nerves the most. A lot of people don't prepare because they're afraid of, it brings up a lot of emotional issues and they're afraid of seeming over practice, which never happens. Most people never make it up the baseline. So I often say, you've gotta know your stories.

You've got to know your stories. So let's say you're in an interview, there's only so many questions they can ask. And what I would suggest is like preparing at least three buckets of stories that you can extract from. If something goes blank, you go into, you know, one of your greatest hits, you know, that you can massage into something else. It's a time you overcame an obstacle. It's a, it's a time when you mentored a student, whatever the occasion is, should give you some sense of your own.

story and history. I think, say you're in an interview, you we all have our denotative CV or resume, and each has a line item on there. But underneath every one of those things is a connotative story. What was it emotionally like? What was it? How did you get there? What was the take? What's the takeaway from from that event? What did you do? How did it change things? You have to have the insight to know your own story.

You know, who are you? What have you done? I will often ask my undergrad students to reflect about, you know, here we are, our fourth year or senior year, and how have you changed? What has evolved for you? What have you done since you first walked into, let's say, Northwestern? Are you able to articulate that? So if someone at the interview says, oh, you went to Northwestern, the answer to that question is not, yeah. It's like Northwestern is the place where I fell in love with research, where I really finalized

who I am and what I want to do and I found my passion. There's your own story. What have you done? Where are you going? What do you want to do? So going blank, if you're going blank, I would say just stop for moment, reflect, think about it. You don't have to rush through or immediately come up with something. Being thoughtful is a very good human way of being in front of an audience. And if you really don't know, you can say, let me think on that for a minute and I'm going to get back to you.

Daniel Moser (15:07.148)
And then you can talk about something ancillary perhaps, but preparation about your main stories. I would say going into any interview with a couple of directives and saying things to yourself like what must my audience know? Second, how do I want them to feel when I'm done? And then like, what do I want them to do? Just simplify it into these three main things.

and keep focused on those things.

Andy Hibel (15:38.518)
I think for me, that answer encompasses the textbook of how you should go about it. I also think it highlights for me kind of the opposite. They're done with half the question. It's a super deep question. And you know exactly as you refer to it, which one of the stories from the buckets you're going to pick out because it's just perfect. You got this thing nailed and you can't wait to tell it. Don't forget silence can work in your favor. Make yourself quiet.

for an appropriate amount of time, not too long, as if you're pondering it in this production and come back with that answer instead of like a millisecond after they stop the question, you just blurt out the answer because you're so excited that you have it. Be thoughtful.

Daniel Moser (16:24.268)
That's fantastic. The power of the pause. I love watching people who think on their feet, who walk and talk and you can see the wheels turning. This is not some canned thing. This was made for this audience in the here and now. And together we are co-constructing this moment. This moment's never existed before. This isn't something I pulled off the rack. This is for us.

And so then when you leave this room, we constructed something you're going to reflect on. wasn't just killing time to get through a topic and we get to the next one and get through the topic. Give the presentation you wish you could watch. know, be real. You know, if you have a busy audience and things are happening and people are like, there's a lot of nervous energy in the room, just stop. If they're looking down at their phone, for God's sake, like just stop talking. Their head will lift up.

And they'll say, what's going on? Did he forget where he is? What's going on? What's happening? Right? Now you've re-arrested their attention. Now we can reset. We begin again, but keep them guessing, make it interesting. Move, know, gestural variety, tone. These are all mechanical things that you can do to show variety and interest and demonstrating that you're happy to be there with them, making this thing happen, that you enjoy them. Right?

If you come in canned and Andy, talked about scripted. I think that's kind of the worst mistake because written language is different than spoken language. We script everything out and memorize it. It sounds wooden and distancing. And the best thing you can possibly sound is conversational. There's no better pat on the back after you speak and someone says, was so conversational. It was like you were talking with us. Yes, because I was. You practice, practice, practice, practice, practice. And you walk into the room.

and you've put all of that away. And now you trust yourself to live in the moment and to be here now. And that's why, you know, if you're enacting training program for the first three years, we're taking classes all the time on relaxation technique. Because if you're nervous, it shuts everything down, your ability to think and stay in the moment. Your functional IQ can drop eight to nine points. So you're not even yourself. If you work all of your life to get into a room to be, you know, a job that will

Daniel Moser (18:47.47)
potentially change your life because the first job you have yet has a lot to do with the second job you get. And you walk in there and you are nervous.

Kelly Cherwin (18:58.446)
Hahaha!

Daniel Moser (19:01.262)
The timing of this is perfect.

Kelly Cherwin (19:05.196)
Yes, I am.

Daniel Moser (19:08.526)
What you said here. If you're nervous, your functional IQ can drop eight to nine points. So what are you doing other than working all these years and doing all this hardcore technical analytical work and you show up for a meeting that could literally change your life and you're not even yourself. So you've literally sent in an imposter to represent you. If this were your agent, you would fire them, right?

So you have to be the agent for your own work. You have to represent yourself and you have to be ready to maximize that experience. And, you know, let's face it. If you're in it, let's talk about an interview situation. There are 300 applicants for this job. They all have great resumes. They all have great letters of recommendation. What's the difference? Why you. And it ultimately comes down to, is this person collegial? Am I bonding with this person? Do I like them? Am I feeling it? It was just an easy rapport. Did this feel like a

job interview or did it feel like a professional discussion? Did it feel like I'm going to hire you and tomorrow we're going to be colleagues and we're going to be talking like this? It's just that easy. So yeah, don't script it. Don't write it. You'll sound wooden and distancing and it will sound canned and you will lose the ease. It'll sound rigid and uptight and won't feel human in a way. And when you're a room with other human beings, that's what you want them to feel like this. This is

This is a real authentic moment.

Kelly Cherwin (20:36.728)
That's so true. And I will say there's been times that I have wanted to fire myself. So I hope today is not one of those, those times. And I will now I have some, some pressure here. I know you've gone through some great tips and advice already, but I wanted to give you the opportunity, if there's anything else to add with your motto of think clearly and speak powerfully, is there anything that you, haven't addressed that you want to bring into that advice on, on how, you know, whatever a job seeker, person giving a presentation, person in a

podcast, what can they do to abide by your motto?

Daniel Moser (21:12.761)
I staying relaxed is the main takeaway and practicing helps you stay relaxed. Also thinking about, so sometimes I work with technical people who are like, they're, they want to be good at speaking well, but they don't think it's something that they can do. And they think about it as something you either have or you don't. I say you either do it or you don't. And

with the application of every will, if you practice, you will get better. So trusting that and realizing that the person who cannot communicate what they know, this is ancient Greek wisdom, right? The person who cannot communicate what they know is the same as the person who knows nothing. So if you really want to be successful in your career, if you really want to connect and engage, then you will start to realizing that your analytical skills and your professional communication skills need to entwine. Double helix entwine.

and use your analytical skills that you use outward of the out external world. And I would say turn them inward so that can make yourself more user friendly. So I use a lot of framing devices and quotations. Sometimes I work with some banks, investment banks, the expression that says we need to deliver brief, brilliant messages. Brief, brilliant messages. So structure is huge, right? And one little framing device I call prep, P-R-E-P.

You simply distill it down to its essence. The point I want to make are the reason I'm saying that. E, here's an example, and you simply restate your point. So staying structured and passionate and engaged, that's what you want to work with.

Kelly Cherwin (22:52.802)
I'm sorry, I'm like laughing at the growling.

Andy Hibel (22:56.178)
And I really hope on the video side, we get the video of your dog looking at you like he's absorbing or she's absorbing everything you're saying and it's just an awe. That's the visual we want people to have when they come away from the podcast is understanding that that's you want your audience looking like.

Daniel Moser (23:17.368)
There are actually speaking classes where you can practice in front of dogs.

Andy Hibel (23:22.126)
Sticking with the prep, I think I'm going to lead with the E or the example kind of going into this question. In looking at the question, it reminded me of Wade Boggs, who's a hall famed baseball player from the 80s and 90s, who infamously only ate chicken. Like he had a good game somewhere in the minors, he had eaten chicken, and now he only eats chicken. I believe it was on game day.

So for everybody to channel their inner Wade box for this question, if you have a screening caller, job talker, presentation or interview coming up, what is one simple routine to follow maybe 24 hours before or one like shortly before in the 15 minutes leading up that can help you feel grounded and ready to perform?

Daniel Moser (24:09.806)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think burning off the nervous energy, find a workout. Sometimes you've been, it's been on your mind, it's an important event. Find a way to take it offline for a while. Put it aside and enjoy the day. Do whatever the things that you need to do. Eat the chicken. Whatever your routines are that put you in the place that feels good for you.

Ask yourself, what did I do the last presentation? You know, don't wear new shoes to the first on-site interview where you're walking around campus all day. Do the things that make you feel comfortable, that make you feel grounded. And I would say do some creative visualization. See yourself in time and space, in that room if possible, and replay it in your mind. Tennis players that played the match before they hit the court quite often.

There's all kinds of creative visualization ways and finding your own ways that make you feel grounded and, you know, take the attention off of yourself and put it on what needs to be done. It's not about you. It's about you're there to help and they need to know things. Otherwise you're just sort of kidnapping their attention. And it's kind of not even an ethical act. You're saying don't do what you want to do. Do what I want you to do. So if you're going to take up their time, you need to come there and help them.

Get things that you believe are vital and important for them to know. Reframing yourself as someone, it's not about being nervous and about you, it's about them.

Kelly Cherwin (25:43.874)
Thank you, Daniel. This was a wonderful conversation. really enjoyed it.

Daniel Moser (25:47.338)
as did I. I really appreciate it and thank you very much for inviting me.

Andy Hibel (25:51.308)
Thank you, Daniel, and thank you for listening. If you have any tips or thoughts or questions for Daniel, please feel free to email us at podcast@higheredjobs.com or send us a direct message on X @higheredcareers. Thanks for listening, and we look forward to talking with you again real soon.