Andy Hibel (00:01)
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs Podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the Chief Operating Officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly Cherwin (00:08)
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy. Today we're welcoming back Dr. Joseph Brennan, vice president for university communications and marketing at Montclair State University and also a regular contributor to HigherEdJobs. Joe has spent more than three decades helping leaders build workplaces where talented people thrive. He's advised 13 presidents, guided institutions through major crises and led award winning campaigns that have contributed to record enrollment.

What stands out most though is his people first leadership philosophy, which focuses on the psychological safety, respect and creating environments where employees want to stay and grow. Joe joined us previously to talk about his article, "What I Learned From My Worst Interview Ever," where he shared a personal career story about a hostile interview. Today we're going to focus on a different article regarding how to be the leader that everyone actually wants to work for.

So Joe, thank you again for coming back and joining us. We look forward to the conversation today.

Joe Brennan (01:05)
You're welcome, Kelly. I'm so glad to be back. Last time it was so much fun. Looking forward to our convo today.

Kelly Cherwin (01:12)
So, as I mentioned, we're talking leadership today. And today we're talking about connecting that with empathy and what role empathy plays, especially when teams are overwhelmed or stressed, which is easy to believe these days. So some leaders don't always see this, the idea of supporting employees in these moments as a part of their job. They may even think that stress is a sign of weakness. in that article, you talked about the idea of heart of leadership.

So can you break that down for us and tell us why that matters to team performance and ultimately retention?

Joe Brennan (01:48)
Yeah, I'm a big believer in heart first leadership. Kelly, I've developed in that direction over my career. I wasn't always that person. ⁓ I think you could just ask people that work for me 30 years ago, but why is it so important? Well, our institutions exist to develop human potential and we cannot do that if we ignore the human experience of the people doing the work. People don't check their entire self at the door when they walk onto campus, they show up with everything they are, body, mind, and soul, all their experiences, cultures, and people that have shaped them. And I think it's foolish to assume that, you know, we can't pay attention to emotions. We can't pay attention to struggles that people have in their life outside of work. I think we can, and I think we should.

Effective leaders lead people. They don't solve problems. We don't manage problems. We manage people. And to do that, to do that well, we have to stay connected to our people. And that's, that's what this article is really all about is how do you open your heart and stay connected? And how do you do it? And I published a follow-up article that you'll remember too about, that doesn't mean not having a backbone. Some folks might confuse an openhearted, empathetic, warm leadership style with being a pushover. And as the, as the saying goes, don't confuse my kindness for weakness because it is possible. And in fact, necessary as a leader to be strong and to have backbone while also having an open heart and staying connected.

Andy Hibel (03:42)
The idea that working with people, I love in the piece that you cite Katherine Manning, the author of the "Empathic Workplace," where she says, quote, if you're working with people, you're working with people in trauma, unquote. And then kind of in response to that, you kind of highlight the laser method, all caps L-A-S-E-R, as a practical framework for responding when someone brings you a difficult concern.

Can you explain this method and which parts can make the biggest impact for higher ed leaders?

Joe Brennan (04:17)
Absolutely. Thank you, Andy. I have huge respect for Katherine Manning. was decades as a victim services advocate in the US Department of Justice and, you know, working with people on their very worst day, like parents of school shooting victims. Right. So Katherine's laser model. I love it. I use it. I teach it. I share it with coaching clients. Listen, acknowledge, share, empower, return. So let's break it down. Listen.

Listen means listening without interrupting, listening without responding to the urge to solve a problem or give advice. Just let the person talk. If somebody's telling you a difficult story, something they're struggling with, just receive it and occasionally repeat some of their language back to them. ⁓ your dad is really sick. It sounds weird, like

Like there's an echo in the room, but it actually works extremely well because Andy, the person knows they're being heard. You're repeating their exact words back to them after listen, acknowledge. So that means just let them know you've heard what they've said. Validate their experience and phrases like that sounds difficult or I'm sorry. You're having to go through this. That's so important. In fact.

I was talking to Kate Manning about a year ago after she published her book, The Empathetic Workplace. And I said, look, if you can't get through all five, what should you do? She said, just do listen and acknowledge that's 80 % of the work. And Kate also said, be careful about how you acknowledge. So sometimes in an effort to maybe build rapport with someone, we might say, ⁓ I know exactly what you're going through. That happened to me too.

No, that didn't happen to you. Something like that happened in your life, but you don't live that person's life. So don't say that and don't say at least, well, sorry your dog died, but at least you still have your cat. That's not helpful either. So listen, acknowledge. Share is the next thing. And that means simply offer resources or information. This is especially important in the workplace.

an employee who may be struggling with a difficult challenge at home. Tell them that the university offers an employee assistance program and that it's confidential and free and that if they choose to access it, this is how they do it. Here's the phone number or here's the web link. Don't overwhelm your person, but do offer concrete steps. Now, empower means don't tell somebody what to do.

Trauma, difficult situations, disasters that befall us in life, rob us of our ability to make choice. Something happens to you, you become powerless in that moment, which is a big part of the emotional injury that someone's suffering. So don't tell your person what to do. Instead, give them choices. So questions like, what could be most helpful for you right now?

What do you want to happen next? How can I support you? Are all good open-ended questions that allows them to make the choice. And keep in mind when you're empowering, someone may choose to not accept. The person may not want to go talk to the EAP program, for example. You have to allow that unless it's something that is very specifically prescribed by policy.

or to comply with legal or regulatory things. As a manager, there may be a time when you have to say, need you to file a report on this. ⁓ It is our policy that you must, right? But most of the time, give people choice. And the R in Laser means return. That means check back in a day or two later. Hey, Andy, thank you for sharing your story and trusting me with it. I just want to know how you're doing right now. ⁓

And also return means make sure that they know they can come back to you. And then finally, Katherine Manning reminds us return means return to yourself. When you're receiving someone's difficult story, it takes a toll on you. This is hard emotional labor. So make sure you return to yourself. You engage in some self-care practices, whatever that means for you. like to take a walk. like physical motion helps me reset.

⁓ So that's LASER laser.

Kelly Cherwin (09:16)
Thanks, Joe, for bringing up that the laser method. really do like that. And thanks to Catherine Manning as well. So I know earlier you talked about people don't just check everything at the door. When they walk on campus, everything is fantastic. And you encourage leaders to recognize that everyone is carrying something. But then you also said earlier that being kind should not be confused with being weak. So how can leaders be compassionate with their people?

but then also obviously make sure that the job is getting done and they can hold these people accountable.

Joe Brennan (09:52)
think real leadership requires candor. So we need to have the courage to be able to say, Kelly, I've observed that your last three assignments were turned in late. And that's having an impact on the team because now the next person down the line is behind. What's going on? So I think we need to have the courage to name what we see. Name it without judgment, shame, or blame.

But be honest, this is the behavior I'm seeing. This is the impact it's having. And that may be an impact on you too, that you could say, you know, and it makes me worry about the success of our team. Whatever that impact is, be upfront about it. And then pause and let the person share with you what's going on. They may be well aware that they're struggling. They may have found it difficult to ask for help, but you don't do someone any favors.

By tolerating bad behavior, sub power performance, because you know what happens? It festers, things get worse and worse. And now you're in a crisis where you've lost the opportunity for that person to pull back, pull up and correct. And you're moving into discipline, suspension, termination, something like that. That's not fair to them. It's not fair to your team. So find the courage. ⁓

You can do it while staying connected. You can terminate someone while staying emotionally connected to them, letting them have their dignity, receiving whatever emotional response they deliver back to you. But you have a duty to your team, to your employer that you have to carry out. But that doesn't mean that you ever need to be mean or disrespectful or do anything that diminishes the other person's dignity.

This is entirely possible. However, many leaders have lost sight of it. And I think I would be surprised if Andy, if every person on this webcast, I would not be surprised if they had an experience of being humiliated, bullied, disrespected by a superior in the workplace. I know it's happened to me. In fact, it's been a big impetus for me to be a heart first leader, but there's no reason why that has to happen.

A conscious leader can manage her own emotions. A conscious leader can decide to stay connected with her people while also upholding standards.

Andy Hibel (12:30)
I think also your focus on the consciousness of what leadership is all about. You're very, very specific on placing a huge priority on psychological safety in creating safe spaces. ⁓ What are some steps that leaders can take to build an environment where people feel comfortable raising concerns before issues escalate?

Joe Brennan (12:55)
Psychological safety is absolutely, absolutely fundamental high performing teams. And what it means is that it's okay to say, this didn't work. I made a mistake. We failed to hit our goals. The key is to not judge, blame or shame, but rather to say, what's the learning here? How could we do it differently next time? What might've contributed to this?

and allow that to be a safe place of curiosity and exploration, not a place of punishment and blame. There may be a time when you as the leader need to create some consequences if someone is repeatedly making the same mistakes, but you don't do that in front of other people. ⁓ One of my mentors who ⁓ was one of the mentor coaches in my coaching education program said,

She lives by the acronym FAIL, F-A-I-L, finding answers in learning. So, and I said, coach Kelly, I love that, but I'm going to give you another one. Sucks. Super uncomfortable creation of knowledge situation. So if we can simply approach the inevitable mistake, failure, shortcoming that happens in life as

This is something we can learn from and you know, we can get better. That's the approach. And I submit that it is the difference between high performing and low performing teams. The reason is high performing teams who are learning are getting better a lot faster and you can't learn if people are unwilling to share.

and they try to hide and keep the mistake away and they don't want anybody to know and they're afraid of being blamed. If you can create a space where you're like, Hey, we put it all out on the table. I try to model that myself. In fact, just yesterday I was having a meeting with my direct reports and I said, guys, I got to tell you something. I've been working on this project and it's, designed a project timeline that is failing. It's failing. We, I didn't, this is on me.

I should have realized we had Thanksgiving and winter break and we had to get a lot more work done sooner, but I set up a project timeline that, and now we're going to go into, we're behind on this project. So, I mean, just own it like you're human to, right? Own it, learn from it, move on.

Kelly Cherwin (15:35)
I love that advice of being vulnerable and taking accountability. will say, Joe, I don't have an acronym, though, to follow up on the good ones that you discussed.

Joe Brennan (15:46)
I'm going to check in with you, Kelly. Super uncomfortable creation of knowledge situation.

Kelly Cherwin (15:51)
So I want to kind of close things out here with our final question. you know, there's some institutions out there that might be struggling with burnout and attrition, low morale, many other issues. So if every campus leader could practice just one thing tomorrow, Joel, to create a safer, more supportive environment, what would it be?

Joe Brennan (16:14)
Start with listening, genuine listening, not listening to solve a problem, not listening to give you what you're going to say next to the person. Really listen and listen not only with your ears, but with your eyes and with your heart. Practice that for a week and notice if anything changes. Notice if people encounter you differently. Notice if you're getting new insights and then

Can offer a second one? When people are struggling, acknowledge and approach them with curiosity and compassion. You know, as leaders, can be easy to fall into the trap. Like, Hey, Susan, you're, you're missing the mark here. Come on, step it up. You know, we can't, we can't accept this. What happens if you say, Hey, Susan, come and sit with me for a minute. I'm noticing that you've been.

delivering work that isn't characteristic for you and it's coming in late. Are you okay? No, I'm really struggling. My mom is really ill and I'm the only caregiver. Hmm. Okay. Wow. That sounds like that's hard for you. Those kinds of conversations are transformative. So I encourage people go ahead and try this. Listen, be curious. When somebody shares the story of their struggle, acknowledge, don't try to fix.

This will move you ahead very quickly on your journey to an open-hearted leadership style.

Andy Hibel (17:45)
Thank you so much, Joe. We really appreciate this wonderful piece and the additional thoughts that this discussion has led to. If you have any questions for Joe or any questions about this podcast or anything you'd like to suggest, please feel free to email us at podcast@HigherEdJobs.com or send us a direct message on x at HigherEdCareers. Thanks again, Joe, for being with us today. We look forward to hopefully getting you on the podcast again.

Joe Brennan (18:12)
You're welcome. I'd love to come back and thank you and your team for all you do to raise the bar of leadership in higher education.

Kelly Cherwin (18:21)
Thanks, Joe. It was a pleasure having you on. And just another plug, we'll do this in our written recap, link to Joe's articles. So I encourage everyone who is listening, if you have time when you're on your device to read it, please take a look at all of his leadership articles. They're fantastic. So thanks, Joe, again. It was a pleasure. We look forward to seeing you soon.

Andy Hibel (18:41)
Thank you for listening. We look forward to talking with you again real soon.