Andy Hibel (00:01)
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the Chief Operating Officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly Cherwin (00:07)
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the Director of Editorial Strategy. Today, we will be talking interviews and we are joined by Dr. Joseph Brennan, Vice President for University Communications and Marketing at Montclair State University and also a regular contributor to HigherEdJobs. Joe has spent more than three decades helping leaders build workplaces where talented people thrive.

He's advised 13 presidents, guided institutions through major crises, and led award-winning campaigns that have contributed to record enrollment. What stands out most though is his people-first leadership philosophy, which focuses on the psychological safety, respect, and creating environments where employees want to stay and grow. Joe, thank you so much for joining us today.

Joseph Brennan (00:48)
Kelly, you're welcome. It's great to be here with you and Andy.

Kelly Cherwin (00:51)
Well, we're excited for this conversation. So let's get into the questions here. So as I mentioned, a contributor to HigherEdJobs and you recently wrote an article describing what you learned from a bad interview experience. And it resonated with I guess that's good and bad in a way. But you mentioned that reading the room and trusting your gut are key during interviews. So can you talk a little bit more about what that actually looks like in practice? And then also, help us identify some red flags that candidates should pay attention to.

Joseph Brennan (01:22)
Kelly, yeah, I wish I could say that you're never gonna have a bad interview and every single interviewer wants you to be successful, but that's just not the case. And I learned that the hard way, oh my gosh, 35 years ago. I remember that interview vividly. It was tough. It was hostile. But I'm working on it in therapy. I think I'll be okay in another couple of years.

So how do you know that you're in an ambush? The first thing I always tell is check in with your body. You should be feeling a normal level of heightened activation because you're in an interview, you're right? And you want that energy to kind of pump you up. But if you feel defensive, if you feel fearful,

questions are starting to get under your skin and you're feeling activated, maybe even a little angry. are all warning signs to pay attention to. always check in with the body because the body knows faster than the head knows. And look around the room. Do you see dismissive body language like scowls and arms crossed and leaning away?

Are you getting questions where people are performing instead of listening? So a performative question might look like a long exposition of something very complicated. And really what's happening is that interviewer is showing off their knowledge and expertise in front of their peers and not so genuinely interested in helping you as the candidate

your skills. You might even get some questions that feel like they're designed to rattle you not to assess. I remember being asked, you look awfully young, are you sure you can handle this? So, or inappropriate questions and which which shocks me but I still hear from coaching clients that this is happening.

In this particular case, this was for a secular organization, I was asked about my religious faith and there was no way in the world, even 35 years ago, I think we knew that was a no-no. and finally, you might get a question that I call the impossibility test. They're laying out something that

just sounds like there's no way you'd have to be Superman or Wonder Woman to survive in this environment. The challenges are so high, the budgets are so low and so forth. So when you have those red flags then that's a sign that okay I may not be in an interview where this is genuinely about me being able to share what I can do to help the organization succeed. There may be other agendas in play.

Perhaps there's a favored candidate and they're going through the motions because HR requires a search. Perhaps there's deep conflict either around the role or between members of the search committee. Or perhaps it's just a toxic workplace. And those exist. In fact, research suggests that one in five workplaces in America toxic. That's a whole other topic but if you find yourself in that situation pay attention to those red flags.

Kelly Cherwin (04:41)

Thanks, Joe. I appreciate you outlining those red flags and those examples. I will say it's been many years now, but I do remember being in an interview feeling that impossible type question. So it actually makes me feel better. And maybe some of our listeners as well, just wasn't something that I was experiencing. Like, unfortunately, it is kind of a thing that happens. But yeah, I could see that he wasn't.

really interested in learning about me as a candidate, but almost was like trying to embarrass me, like asking me like such a big question, was like how to solve world peace and just seeing how I'd react. So you for the advice for listening to your gut and checking in on those red flags.

Andy Hibel (5:26)
I would probably add if we're looking at the bad interview bingo card, the illegal question is one I've seen in addition to having those impossible questions. And one small
reminder for folks out there. Joe drew a very important distinction on the religion question. If you are actually ⁓ working with a faith-based organization, have to remember there's constitutional right to freedom of religion. And those sorts of instances, particularly with some organizations or codes of conduct and other deeply held religious beliefs within those religions, no judgment as to whether they're right or wrong in my statement.

but just respecting the fact that that is a question that legally they can ask. You have a right to choose whether or not that jibes with what you're looking for from an institution. So just remember that. Do not be alarmed and say, my gosh, that's an illegal question. many instances it is, but not always in that specific to religion and various deeply held questions about religious beliefs. I also would add, at least for me, the impossibility test. Like, I love the idea of that question, but I always like looking at the other side of the coin of this, is your evaluation, which really, to me, when you look at this whole part of a bad interview, when you go into an active job search, you have one major goal. maybe there should be like, when you go into an active job search,

You have a wedding it's one of those things where you marry the process. Like you here about the process and you need to look at the process. And you're to stick to the process in good time and bad until death does you part. the search is over. When you're sticking to the process, you're easy to see that there's one big question you're constantly asking yourself, which is, can I succeed, thrive, and grow in this role? And as soon as you're getting that red flag with an impossibility test, and that's what they're asking you now, and this is throughout your piece, God, help me what that's gonna be when you're actually, isn't even the honeymoon period, this is the romance. How are you going to survive that?

Joseph Brennan (07:51)
Yeah. If this is the courtship, what's the marriage going to be like? So great points, It's important to remember as a candidate, you're interviewing the organization as much as they're interviewing you. And you're looking for what's the culture? How open are they? Are mistakes seen as

learning opportunities or occasions for punishment. Do people seem to work well as a team? would I feel coming into this workplace every single day? And the interview will tell you a but you have to stay open and curious and have that mindset that I'm here to learn as much as I am to present myself.

Andy Hibel (08:36)
Thanks, Joe. think you're spot on with two-way part of the interview. I think it's so much seen that the only goal is to get the job, whereas when you set that as a goal, you sometimes lose sight being able to do the other side of the interview where you're interviewing them. Let's presume you're now in that moment and your gut has told you that this feels off. How can a candidate reframe that interaction in real time so the conversation stays professional, constructive, and attempt to refocus the interview to meet their originally stated goal, which in my case is to answer that deep rooted question that the process requires you to stick to?

Joseph Brennan (09:20)
I think that we should all learn and practice the redirect technique. So the redirect technique is to receive the question and then make a pivot so that you can answer the question. So this is something that we teach people in ⁓ media interviewing skills, for example. It looks something like this. So I'm hearing you say technology skills are very important here.

What I'm curious about is, you can with a question to try to get them to tell you more so that it might be. I'm curious as to what specifically is important about that for this role. so let's say it's smart performative person that's giving you all this technology speak. And then you might say,

Well, it sounds like technical know-how is pretty important here. And then pivot to launch into what your technical know-how looks like. redirect, reframe. Interviews are not normal conversations. They are a dance that the candidate and the committee are doing in real time. And going in there.

to make certain points and to present yourself a particular way, which ideally is jigsaw puzzle piece that fits exactly the opening that they're looking to fill. So you have three, four, five points that you want to get across, that you want them to remember about you. So redirect. There's nothing that says you have to answer exactly the question the way it was asked.

That's one, you know, I think really key tactic. Another tactic is become aware if you are getting activated. So if you're starting to get like your blood is starting to boil, like how, are these people? How dare they be so obnoxious? Be aware of that and take a pause. Take a deep breath, press your.

feet down into the floor or your hands down into the arms of your chair. No one will see you or notice you doing this, but you're telling your body that everything's okay and it doesn't need to go into fight or flight response. I find that very useful because I'm a kind of emotional person and it's easy for me. They say Irish temper, right? It's easy for me to kind of get activated if I feel like I'm under threat.

Take a breath, take a breath. I find that helps a lot too. But probably the key all of this is to keep your mindset on curiosity so that you're not defensive and judgmental. Instead, you're coming in with, what can I learn here? Why is this person asking this? What's the question behind the question?

once you get into the curiosity space, you are now an anthropologist observing another culture and not a person who's being put on the hot seat and shot full of questions that feel like arrows. So it's possible to do that, it's necessary to do that. And Andy, Kelly, I think it's important that we tell our listeners, not every

difficult interview is really done with intention and hostility. Although the one I wrote about, think was, but it could also be that you've got insecure or underprepared interviewers. you've got agendas that you are not aware of may be more about what's happening in the dynamics of that organization and not at all about you. So I think also assume there's good intent.

and operate that way until it becomes absolutely clear that there isn't good intent here.

Kelly Cherwin (13:17)
I love that advice and I want to kind of keep going on that. You mentioned earlier about the interviewing being kind of a dance. how do you know, guess, when, you you've identified some of these red flags and you're kind of listening to your gut, ⁓ but how do know when you could potentially end the dance? Like you hear all questions. Do you just keep plowing through and hoping for the best? Like it'll turn around or?

Do you kind of like, you take that inquisitive approach and try to learn from it and just take a deep breath and be like, you know what, this isn't going to be for me. So how do know when to end that dance?

Joseph Brennan (13:48)
Yeah. Yeah.

I think you'll, your intuition will tell you that this thing's reached the point of no return or you've seen enough to know that even if you get the offer, the answer is, heck no. So when you get to that point, here's the thing that you shouldn't do, Kelly. Stand up abruptly, knock your chair over and storm out. Higher ed is a small community.

In fact, Andy, you and I were talking about how many connections we have together on LinkedIn that overlap. You want to always show up as a professional, as honestly the better person if they're stooping to petty behavior. So remain calm, keep your answers short. Don't ask of follow up questions that are going to keep the ping pong match going. Just kind of

with a neutral or semi-pleasant expression on your face, sit there. Deliver a short, crisp answer and allow silence to fill the room. Chances are that the committee may want end it too, especially if it's a performative interview that already got somebody in mind and they're just going through the motions or other reasons. They may not want to be in the room any longer than you do.

Andy Hibel (15:04)
Thanks, Joe. That's a good place to transition over to the kind of other side of the coin that now you've actually determined this is a bad interview. You actually said in the piece that I knew I wasn't going to take the job, you know, was offered to me, which under ideal job search conditions, I think that that is a great place to be.

We like to kind of say when you get to that point that is under ideal conditions, are some points in people's careers where they honestly need a new job. know particularly in today's environment, there may be a layoff, their job may be at risk, they need to go someplace else, and they don't have the luxury of an ideal job search. But assuming it's an ideal job search, you've determined that even if offered, I'm not taking this,

had list of items of what to do when the interview goes sideways, followed by kind of the wonderful title, The Gift of a Bad Interview. the interview goes sideways, you suggest to turn the tables. What's the biggest challenge facing the department? How do you handle conflict on the team? What happened to the last person in the role? And then when you kind of conclude, you talk about a whole other set of questions about exploring culture.

How do you handle mistakes here? What does support look like for someone new? Can you tell me about a recent challenge the team overcame together? Those six questions are some of the best interview questions that you could ask. But on the degree of difficulty, that is a graduate school class on being able to ask those questions in an appropriate and effective way. And I can't recommend more than trying them out in a bad

Joseph Brennan (16:40)
Yeah.

Andy Hibel (16:46)
interview for the first time is a great place to do this so you can learn how to ask those questions in a good interview that prompts healthy dialogue and conversation. What I'd love for you to be able to do is do you say to people about that gift? The gift of a bad interview was a few sentences, but it's such a great place to go and when you recognize that and how do you recognize that in real time?

Joseph Brennan (17:00)
Well, I like to think that if you can get some learning out of a bad situation, it's not a bad situation. I like to believe, and I work with my coaching clients on this is to adopt a that everything that happens, every situation, every person, every event you go through is there for your growth and learning.

even the most horrible ones. And when you reframe that way, it opens a huge window for personal growth. So recognizing the gift, the gift is what you learn. For me, the gift of that horrible interview was how to not interview people and to not treat people the way I was treated. That very important learning. And I love your idea that

This is a moment to practice. Asking those powerful questions, the ones that begin with what and how and cannot be answered with a yes or a no. Like what's the biggest challenge or how do you handle conflict or how are mistakes treated? Getting all the practice you can in that is great. Every interview, even the ones that aren't toxic, the majority of what you'll find in your career is

perfectly decent people that are genuinely trying help you expound your But even in those, you're not going to get, you know, this is a lottery, honestly, 150 people apply for the job, only one's gonna get it. But use that interview as an opportunity to learn and grow. And ⁓ I also feel, Andy, that having that mindset,

of this is here for my growth. life is an amazing learning opportunity, almost like a university where every class and every professor and every fellow student is custom designed to serve and support me and my growth. once you have that mentality, these kinds of painful moments are

little easier to take and much more beneficial because you know went through the hassle you might as well walk away with some.

Andy Hibel (19:31)
Very true. have a chance to grow. And it's sometimes even better, you have a chance to help others grow in those sorts of environments. So when you see that happening, love how you reflected back on now how you interview based on this experience. Like, that's a gift that's not just for your job search.

Joseph Brennan (19:53)
Mm-hmm.

Andy Hibel (19:56)
great professional development to understand whether you look at a good leader or you look at a good manager, they're gonna tell you about experiences they had that were formative that helped them to be the leader or manager by seeing examples of who they didn't wanna be. I can say unequivocally that that's also wonderful to reset mind in instances like that.

Andy Hibel (20:23)
Joe, thank you so very much these insights, for writing this piece. Can't encourage people more to spend a few minutes with this. Spend a few minutes with this, particularly before you start interviewing a new role. I think it would be really worth your time. Appreciate you being here, Joe.

Joseph Brennan (20:40)
Andy, thank you. Kelly, thank you. I really appreciate what HigherEdJobs does. You guys provide an amazing wealth of resources. I'm always referring people to it. Not only excellent job board, but really useful and helpful professional development information. So thank you for that.

Kelly Cherwin (20:59)
Thanks, Joe. We appreciate it.

Andy Hibel (21:01)
And thank you for listening to this conversation. We hope you enjoyed spending time with Joe as much as we did. And if you have any questions for Joe or any thoughts about this or any bad interviewing experiences that led to new learnings for you, feel free to share them with us at podcast at HigherEdJobs.com feel free to send us a direct message on X @higheredcareers

Thank you for listening and we look forward to talking together real soon.