Andy 0:03
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs Podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly 0:09
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the Director of Editorial Strategy. Today we are joined by Dr. Yi Hao and Dr. Mallory Neal, and we will be talking about growth in your higher education career and making career decisions. We will explore how we can find that sweet spot between maintaining balance and building new skills. So thank you, Yi, and thank you, Mallory, for joining us today. I will go over your bios in a second but just wanted to say welcome.

Mallory 0:32
Thank you for having us.

Yi 0:34
Yeah, thank you.

Kelly 0:35
So to give you a little background on our guests, Dr. Hao is the Director of Education Assessment in the School of Pharmacy at Virginia Commonwealth University. As a scholar practitioner, she holds a PhD in higher education administration from William and Mary and has more than 10 years of experience in research, teaching, and academic and student affairs. Leveraging her experience as an educator, researcher, and immigrant, she actively supports others navigating the hidden curriculum of academic and professional life.

Dr. Hao has led professional development initiatives at the University of Virginia and the University of Maryland, and in her current role at VCU she supports assessment processes, curriculum development, and teaching and learning activities that are integral to academic program success.

Dr. Neal currently serves as the Director of Industry and Alumni Engagement for the College of Science at Clemson University. Previously, she served as the Director of Industry Partnerships for the College. Earning her PhD in history from the University of Houston, she transitioned into the field of career and professional development. Her work with undergraduate and graduate students has included managing experiential learning programs, designing exploration curricula, and establishing employer engagement strategies. She finds immense professional fulfillment in using her professional knowledge to support early to mid-career professionals in navigating their career journeys in higher education.

So welcome again. I am really looking forward to our conversation today.

Mallory 1:54
We look forward to it as well.

Kelly 1:56
So a few years ago, you both wrote a piece for us discussing this good enough framework from the book “Designing Your Work Life,” which helps people shift away from that grind mentality toward something more sustainable.

2:10
So for professionals in higher education, what does that sustainable engagement actually look like in real-life practice?

Mallory 2:17
So for us, we came upon the book “Designing Your Work Life” at a point where we were thinking about our own careers and where we were at in our own journeys. We had a little book club between ourselves, and we came across it. One of the key pieces of the book was this idea of the good enough for now mentality.

It encapsulates this idea that we are often inundated with this grind mentality, that you are always having to pursue more, be the greatest, and advance to the next step. It can be exhausting. It can lead to burnout. You can be unhappy with that process when you feel like you are not achieving enough when compared to your peers.

So for us, and for higher education professionals, we really see this idea of good enough for now meaning that you are not giving up on your position. You are not checking out completely. Instead, you are allowing yourself time to take a pause, to really self-assess and think about what is really important to you, where you are at in your current position, and where, long term, you see yourself going.

Rather than setting super unachievable goals or goals that feel unachievable, what are some of those small steps that you can take, and how can you set yourself some guide rails so that you can take those smaller steps but, in the end, you are able to achieve something that is more long term.

So it is really about being introspective, taking a look at yourself and asking: Who am I? What is important to me? What is challenging about the current work that I am doing? What do I enjoy? And what perspectives might I need to change or reframe in order to feel content in my current circumstances, while making some kind of attainable progress in the long term. So it is really about that self-introspection.

Andy 4:17
I like that description, and I very much enjoy the framing of the overall conundrum you are getting at here, particularly in the piece that was on HigherEdJobs. One of the things that I really like about it is how it makes expectations a partner in the process, as opposed to something that leads the process and dictates it.

If you listen to the podcast regularly, we try to talk about expectations and career paths that should only be written in pencil. Do not write it in pen. Definitely do not make a post on social media saying, “By 2030, I will be this position.” That is unfair to yourself.

So I like the idea that the framework does not mean that you are going to stay in your current job forever, but that you create space to think through the next steps with clarity. For me, I interpret that as getting to do it with intentionality and strategy rather than emotion.

How can someone use the in-between space to explore their identity and professional direction without feeling like they are losing momentum?

Yi 5:39
I think what you just mentioned about intentionality is really spot on. When we think about how to leverage this in-between space, the concern is very relatable. Many of us worry that if we do not take action right now, or constantly do something to improve the situation, we are never going to get out of the current circumstances.

However, at some point in your life, as you continue to explore your career and make life goals, you realize that there is also a cost that is associated with transition and change. When we are already present in that in-between space, we run the risk of losing the capacity to think and to be really intentional.

We want to be really clear about this with our listeners. The act of changing a job itself should not be the end goal. The process of ensuring that you are on the right track, inching toward a direction that aligns with the life that you want next, is what we are advocating for.

A lot of times in decision making, we also consider the push and pull factors. We want to remind the audience to ensure that you are not just running away from the less desirable aspects, but that you are really building momentum toward a better version of your future career.

Staying in this in-between space may seem like nothing is moving, especially if we are using metrics like, “Have I applied for a job yet? Have I already changed jobs?” as the only way to assess our progress. Momentum can look very different for different individuals, especially for listeners who are already working in higher education.

We have the advantage of understanding the ecosystem of higher ed and having opportunities every day to use the good enough framework to prepare for our next move, instead of just thinking, “I have to be doing something else to build that momentum.”

And lastly, as someone who deeply resonates with this feeling and has recently gone through this process, I struggled a lot initially with this idea that I have to keep going. I needed constant reminders from my support network that this process takes time and also requires rest. Too often we feel like we have to keep going, but creating that space for reflection and ambiguity is really critical, no matter how uncomfortable it feels.

Mallory 8:08
And to tap onto that, going back to the first question, one of the pieces is giving yourself some grace. We go through different seasons of life, and at some points there may be parts of your personal or external experience that are drawing more energy from you, where you feel like your effort at work has to decrease.

You cannot give 100 percent all of the time, whether you are looking for that next role or trying to determine what is good enough. So it really is about knowing who you are, giving yourself grace, and allowing, as Yi was saying, the time for rest when you feel like your cup is either overflowing or there are cracks at the bottom that are starting to show.

Kelly 8:55
Thank you both for that. Mallory, you actually took the words out of my mouth about allowing ourselves grace. And just reminding everyone that even if you have not received that next title, or you have not received a promotion or changed jobs, success is measured in very different ways.

I understand what you are saying about wanting to push and grind. As someone who is a type A personality, I am constantly measuring myself by that. So it is a good reminder to step back and say, “OK, I am still making progress and keeping this momentum going,” and ultimately being happy with where this growth is going. So thank you both for your responses to that.

Andy 9:38
If I can just add one quick hat on to this, because I actually think it is such an important point. The disconnection between momentum and action is real. Action always feels good for momentum, but momentum does not necessarily mean action.

Momentum does not mean getting promoted, or getting on a search committee, or taking on new challenges. It can mean a lot of different things and can show up in a lot of different ways.

In a job search, I definitely feel that people fall into the trap, and you mentioned this, Yi, of thinking that applying for jobs means momentum. It is part of the process, do not get me wrong. It is part of the engine that needs to be running. But it is not momentum by itself.

When you tie momentum only to that process, it is going to be really hard in a job search to keep finding momentum, because you do not have control of the timeline. And I think that is a realization from what you have just shared with us. You really do not have control of the timeline outside of a search either. People are going to make their decisions. Organizations are going to change. That happens, but you do not control that either.

So creating action just to fuel your sense of momentum is going to be just as unsatisfying as it often is in a job search.

Kelly 11:03
I am going to switch a little bit and circle back to what we first talked about, which is getting out of the grind. A lot of us know that in higher ed, we are often wearing multiple hats for many different reasons. You both describe this phenomenon as creating friction and limiting one’s bandwidth.

So I am curious to hear your thoughts on where that line is between healthy adaptability and taking on too much. And what is some advice for professionals on how they can advocate for structure without burning bridges?

Mallory 11:34
Absolutely. I think for us, one of the greatest realizations that we came to is that the line between adaptability and feeling overwhelmed or burnt out is different for everyone.

This idea of comparing yourself to what others are doing, and thinking, “If they are able to take on this amount of work and these responsibilities and they look like they are thriving, why am I struggling with that?” is why it is really important to have this introspection. You have to realize it depends on where you are in your current circumstances and what you are carrying in and outside of work.

For us, it is really about identifying when you are tipping the scale from feeling really excited about your work, and really motivated, and having that synergy between your interests and your skills and your passions and the work that you are doing, into that feeling of being overwhelmed. There can be a slippery slope to burnout pretty quickly, and I know that is a common occurrence in higher ed, especially at the present moment.

Referring back to “Designing Your Work Life,” the good enough framework and the good enough for now idea comes from the authors Bill Burnett and Dave Evans. They talk about this idea of being “hydra-overwhelmed” and “hyper-overwhelmed.”

Hydra-overwhelmed is the idea that a lot has been put upon you that you did not necessarily ask for, and that is very energy draining. Maybe someone leaves a position on your team and you are taking on those additional responsibilities, or there is a new project or grant that leads to more work.

To deal with that, it is really about talking to your supervisor, having some honest conversations, and appealing to the overall goals for the department by saying, “You know what, I am at my capacity here. I need to work through what can come off my plate that is not a necessity at the moment in order for me to bring my full self to the work that matters most in the long run.”

Then we have this idea of being hyper-overwhelmed, which is almost the positive spin, where you have taken on so much work that you really enjoy and that really fills your sense of achievement and your goals. But it is still energy draining, because we all have limits. For that, the authors talk about the idea that it is time to delegate, which can be a struggle, especially when it is something you enjoy.

So again, it is the idea of checking in with yourself, being really honest when you ask, “Am I motivated and feeling momentum, or am I feeling overwhelmed, scattered, and like I am not accomplishing a lot at the moment?” Coming to an answer there can be really important.

In terms of having those conversations without burning bridges, I think you need to start earlier than when you are at your breaking point. As soon as you start feeling discomfort or unsettled in the work you are doing, it is important to set up time to talk with your supervisor and walk them through your thought process.

You do not want to wait until you are so frazzled that you feel like you are drowning in your work. At that point, everything will feel like an emergency, and it can create more stress. Ideally, your supervisor will come into that conversation understanding that this is something that needs to be addressed, because they want you to stick around and bring your best self to work.

If they react negatively, I think that tells you something about your situation and your circumstances. With this good enough for now idea, it is not that we want you to ignore a toxic work environment or any discrimination or negative experiences. If you have a supervisor who is unwilling to have a conversation when you start feeling overwhelmed, that tells you something. Maybe your timeline needs to shift. Maybe this is an indicator that if this is not something you can talk about now, it will only compound in the long run.

So going into those conversations with respect for your supervisor, but with honesty and not waiting until it is too late, are things that have stood out to us and that we try to practice ourselves.

Andy 16:33
I am going to flip to the other side of the table and go more from a supervisor’s perspective. Maybe you are a supervisor here, or maybe you are the person who is the employee thinking about how your supervisor might receive this.

In these instances, I often suggest that conversations like this are not done on the fly. Having a scheduled conversation, making sure that you are not catching somebody cold and just arriving with raw emotion, but allowing time for your own intentionality and for theirs, is really important. Without that, you might not get the real read of the situation that you need.

You mentioned in the piece that you wrote that supervisors can support early career staff by being proactive about career development. What makes a meaningful career development conversation, and not just a generic check-in, when this is not a position that is going to be immediately eligible for a higher level or promotion in the next 18 to 24 months, or for another tangible milestone that folks are looking for?

Yi 17:40
Absolutely. Coming back to this conversation about how supervisors can support early career staff members by having these proactive conversations, the first thing is that when we think of supervising, we often think about overseeing someone’s work and performance. At the same time, we know from firsthand experience that when we were early career staff members, we craved mentorship.

To have meaningful conversations also requires a supervisor to center the supervisee’s future career development goals and put that front and center. That is really the first step. Going into this conversation as a supervisor, remember that this is not about you. It is about your supervisee as an individual, and what they might want to say about their aspirations and goals in life.

The other emphasis here is about being proactive. While many managers may say they are open to having discussions about career development, what often makes supervisees hesitant is the inherent power differential in the relationship.

Thinking about the fear we might have about saying, “One day I want a different title,” or “I might want to move on to a different career role,” it might bring up concerns about negative consequences. So with all of that in mind, we are really advocating for supervisors, instead of supervisees, to be proactive in reaching out and having these conversations.

So how can a manager have a meaningful check-in? The first step is being ready to listen without judgment, and then noting what is unique about this individual and trying to respond from a place of curiosity. A lot of times, as mentors, we are likely to draw comparisons between the stories that we are hearing now and our own paths. But it is important to acknowledge that there is individuality in every case you hear.

The next step is providing tangible support. What are the needs or concerns that are emerging from this initial conversation? Is it about upskilling, where you, as a manager, can recommend resources on or off campus? Is it about building a bigger network so they can develop more mentors to facilitate their career goals?

If the ultimate goal for the employee is to get a promotion, and you know it is not on the table right now for various reasons, you can still provide tangible support through the things we already mentioned, like making connections, sharing opportunities, and putting in strong recommendations if and when the time comes and the individual is ready to move on.

Finally, we want to emphasize that any manager should try to create an environment where supervisees feel more comfortable bringing up their future goals and where there are regular follow-ups.

This does not mean it has to be the topic for every one-on-one meeting, but you can set a cadence. Let us say every three months you are going to have a check-in focused on development. That can be really helpful for both parties. If the individual decides to leave, it can also help you plan for transitions and succession planning.

Kelly 21:31
Thank you, that is great advice. For the next question, I want to flip back to the employee side. You both are stressing the importance of self-reflection and giving yourself that space and really listening to your gut.

Once someone has given themselves permission to step back and redefine what good enough is for them, how can they start identifying areas where growth through new skills might help? And do you have any advice on how they can use what they are currently doing to improve themselves?

Mallory 22:05
In a lot of the work that we have done with students, we emphasize this idea of experiential learning. It is a hot topic among career and professional development professionals at both the undergraduate and graduate level.

When we thought about this topic, it was really about flipping the switch and asking, “What happens when a professional within higher ed wants to engage in experiential learning themselves?” Whether it is because they want to develop a new skill or prepare themselves for a transition, the advice we give is based on our work with students.

One piece of that is that it is really important to assess yourself and think about what skills you use on a daily basis. What work are you already engaging with? What do you already bring to the table? What are your current strengths?

The next step is asking what skills you think you are missing. That information can come from talking to people. One of the great resources on a college campus is that there are units and departments across campus that do really interesting work that is different from what your office or unit may be engaged with.

Making those connections, asking them about the work that they are doing, what skills are valued in their positions, and then doing a skills inventory can be helpful. You might say, “This is something I am really strong at. This is something that continues to come up in conversations but is missing from my current skill set.” Or maybe it is something you have not engaged with in a long time and you need to build that muscle back up. That can give you an idea of what areas you may want to focus on.

The next step is to ask yourself what about your current work you enjoy. What gets you excited? Maybe it is, “I get to hop in Excel and create data visualization tools, and that is something I am really enjoying.”

On the flip side, ask what about your current work you do not enjoy. What are some of those pain points? That can really inform what your next steps should be and what you should be doing to prepare for them.

So doing that self-assessment, building your network within your campus and beyond, and really reflecting on your strengths and gaps can be beneficial steps to take in order to engage in this upskilling and reskilling process.

Andy 24:32
I think building on that is really interesting. When you are upskilling, reskilling, or trying something new in general, failure is a key ingredient for success. But failing in safe ways and in ways that are instructive are really the ones you want to aim for.

Failing in big and public ways is not necessarily something to strive for, although sometimes it happens and you do learn a lot from it.

You remind readers that every experience, whether it is a success, failure, imperfect, unexpected, or seemingly perfect, contributes to growth.

When you each think about your own career path, what is one moment that did not seem meaningful at the time but ended up shaping who you are as a professional?

Yi 25:28
Something I think back on from my PhD training is writing a lot of emails. I was very active in student organizations. I was a journal editor at one point. I also had a lot of group leadership roles in group projects.

I wrote a lot of emails outlining tasks, objectives, deadlines, and sometimes I had to nudge people. Later, I took on the role of creating newsletters.

At the time, this practice seemed really annoying and mundane because I was always running short on time. I would write that first draft and then rewrite it several times before I sent it out.

What I did not realize then was that I was crafting my audience awareness, learning that different people are on the go and trying to get something done quickly, and that what I feel is important may not be what they see as important.

This practice of writing and rewriting emails trained me, again and again, to communicate effectively and efficiently with different audiences. At the time it felt like a struggle, but it has become a very important skill for me.

Mallory 26:44
While Yi touched on a skill that she identified and developed over time, I will shift gears and focus on the network piece and the relationships and connections that you make.

It is relevant here because one of the moments that stands out to me is when I first met Yi during my job interview. It was kind of a mundane interaction. We were going through the process of answering interview questions, and later we became coworkers. It seemed like, “OK, this is someone I am going to interact with on a day-to-day basis. We are going to implement projects, we will get the work done.”

But it became something deeper, both in our friendship and in our professional lives. We went on from working together to working in different roles at different institutions and living in different parts of the country.

That initial connection really sparked a professional path that we did not initially see ourselves going down. Because we took a road trip for a conference we agreed to present at together, we were able to see that we aligned in the ways we approached professional development content, how we wanted to support students, and how we saw ourselves as professionals.

It has grown into something where we have been able to contribute to HigherEdJobs and give presentations. It all came from that initial connection that, at the time, did not seem significant, but in the long run it was.

So there is a real benefit that can come from introducing yourself to people and making those connections that, at the time, may just seem relevant to the work you are doing or to accomplishing your day-to-day tasks. You never know how those relationships are going to show up down the road and how they can help you professionally and help you find fulfillment in different ways.

So I think both the skills and the connections can be really beneficial.

Kelly 28:43
I love both of those examples. Thank you for sharing that story, Mallory. And I must say, I love both of your smiles. I can tell the personal and professional relationship that you have, and we are happy it has developed because, as you said, you are regular contributors to HigherEdJobs.

I will put a little plug in there for people listening. If you have time, go check out both Mallory and Yi’s articles on our site. They have fantastic professional development advice.

Yi and Mallory, it has been such a pleasure talking with you today. Thank you so much for sharing your time and insights.

29:39
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