Andy 0:02
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs Podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of co-founders of HigherEdJobs

Kelly 0:08
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the Director of Editorial Strategy. Today, we're joined by Dr. Paul Tonsk, clinical assistant professor in the HigherEd and Post Secondary Education Program at Arizona State University, and Dr. Monteigne Long, Director of Veteran and Military Services for the Texas A&M University System. Thank you both for joining us.

Monteigne 0:28
Good morning.

Paul 0:29
Good morning. Thanks for having us.

Kelly 0:31
Of course, for happy to have you here. Today we'll focus on their edited collection, supporting military-connected college students applying theory to student affairs practice, and discuss how theory and practice can work together to better support military-affiliated students across our campuses. Dr. Tonsk brings more than two decades of experience in student affairs and higher education. His work has spanned academic biasing, counseling, orientation, and student success initiatives, supporting a wide range of student populations, including first-generation students, student athletes, international military-connected learners. At Arizona State University, he teaches in the Hirad and Poe Secondary Education Program where his work focuses on student development theory, advising practices, and research related to student success in support systems. Dr. Long is a system-level higher education leader and advocate for veteran and military-connected learners. She serves as Director of Veteran and military services for Texas A&M University system, where she leads initiatives that support access, engagement, leadership development, and workforce pathways across the systems 12 universities. In addition to her system-level leadership, she works directly with students at Texas A&M University, and teaches leadership courses focused on ethical decision-making and values-based leadership. Together, they co-edited supporting military-connected college students a collection that brings together research, and practitioner perspectives to help hire-ed institutions better understand and support student veterans and military-connected learners. Thanks again for joining us today.

Monteigne 2:01
Thank you for having us.

Paul 2:03
Absolutely.

Kelly 2:04
So let's set the stage here. Many of our listeners may not work with the military population or student veterans on campus. So, can you each help us set the stage for those listeners and describe from your perspectives what the environment of military-affiliated services and higher education looks like right now?

Monteigne 2:20
Absolutely. So I think, you know, some of the trends that we're seeing right now, and also this is covered in the book is that we're having a lot of changing demographics of the student population that we're serving. And, you know, after the passage of the post-11 GI Bill, 2009, 2010, late 2010s, they were serving primarily student veterans. But as the years have gone on, we are now starting to serve more and more military-connected family members. The veteran numbers have kind of remained static while those family member numbers have just grown exponentially. So this means a shift in how we approach our resources and programming and engagement with our students and our veteran resource centers, taking a more military-connected student approach to the way that we are designing the work that we do. Also, we're seeing, you know, an increase in that term military-connected because we are serving National Guard, Reserve, Active Duty students. These are some populations I think that we didn't historically really include or think about in the way that we designed programming and resources for our students. And so, again, just considering that military-connected, that's not a monolith, right? Like it's not just a student veteran experience, but it's all types of service, whether that's active duty, part-time duty, former service members, or their family members.

Paul 3:46
Yeah, and I would agree and also add that there's been a shift, I think, initially most of the services on campus were to help students, student veterans with compliance and getting their benefits, right? And now there's been a shift towards looking at how can we more holistically support them with programming and support with workforce, pathways, development, prior learning, et cetera. So, I think there is an awareness that they are integrated on our campus, right? And there's been a shift to how can we continue to support them.

Kelly 4:17
I love that. It seems it's less like not just transactional, but more like you said holistic and let's look at the big picture of how to support this population, so that's great. Thank you guys for that.

Andy 4:26
I'd actually like to chime in here and challenge our listeners a bit. The idea of whether or not you feel like you've worked with somebody who's military connected, I believe, there are a lot of stakeholders out there that are silent military connected stakeholders. It's not something that's obvious on campus, always. Sometimes it is, and we can think of the obvious times. Not every military-connected stakeholder kind of wears it on their sleeve. And so I'd kind of challenge you to look around and see the different stakeholders that you know of and think of the time that that person that, like, boy, I've known you for a long time, I've had you in three classes of mine. I never knew. I think that has become much, much more common, particularly in today's day and age, with campuses being the way they are, and not that there are differing opinions necessarily, but it's not one of those conversations that all folks wanna get engaged with right off the bat. I think we've seen more of that. The data in higher ed jobs absolutely reflects a lot of military-connectedness on campus. So see if you can look around campus and think of those times.

Paul 5:36
I think you're spot on, Andy. I think that is sometimes an assumption, right, since we don't see them, they're not there. So I think I know, Montana and I are very intentional about how we are developing a program that maybe some students don't wanna identify as a veteran or a military-connected. So how are we still providing communication resources, programs for those students that maybe just wanna pop in, want to get their benefits certified, and they don't wanna be in the veteran space at all. So I'm sure I'm maintaining, you might see that as well on your campus.

Monteigne 6:08
I think also just not having that stereotype of what veterans look like, right? Like it's not always gonna be the student that the CAMO backpack that you're gonna be able to identify, and also for getting the belt, that we have women veterans on our campus. And so, the wide variety of what our students' experiences can look like for their service and who they are on our campuses now.

Andy 6:28
I think it's important for folks to know that obviously you were the co-editors of the supporting military-connected college students book, which I think is well worth the time if you're interested or particularly wanna further your knowledge of this population. I would definitely want to know why do you feel like this book was so important to publish? And why now?

Paul 6:53
Well, I can definitely start. Actually, it was very spontaneous. Initially, I was teaching a course both in the spring of 2021 and then again 2022 at Southern Miss. And I was trying to find a text, I was teaching a graduate course and I was trying to find a text that I could use to support that course. And I realized very quickly that the most recent book that was anywhere related was in 2017. And so it was dated, right? And much of the conversation was about student veterans and not thinking more inclusively about our military-connected art, active duty, our partner spouses, et cetera. And so it inspired both Montana and I to look and reach out to other voices within the field, other practitioners that were doing some really amazing work, but really weren't, didn't have a voice or an outlet to showcase the great stuff that they were doing. Montana, wanna talk a little bit about the theory-to-practice?

Monteigne 7:51
So we wanted a text that would be written by practitioners for practitioners that was translating theory into practice in a super easy digestible way, right? That you can literally buy it on Monday and put it into practice on Tuesday, right? So this is our approach to this book and that is how we recruited the contributing authors was those that are actually in the field doing this work. Those that are using theory, that are applying theory to their work and can give us concrete examples of how this works with their student populations.

Andy 8:24
I think that the theory into practice, that's always a topic that warms my heart. But also, I know we're going to get into chapter 15 and for those of you who've already read book, you're probably really excited because you know chapter 15 is assessment. What I would say is one of the tools, so if you're a higher ed jobs listener and have never looked at our higher ed military site, higher ed military site was launched maybe five plus years ago. It has a lot of useful information and tools for the higher ed military-connected community. And the first tool we put out there was actually for reservists and there's a whole tool there based on institutions and you are a reservist, what sort of ability you have as far as flexibility in your role to go out and meet your duty to the country. And it's amazing to me over the years how many institutions have changed your policy and let us know or wanted to make sure their policy was there. And I'd say if you're somebody who is military connected that in that community, when you're in a job I think that that's a great tool to just take a look at and make sure you know what that policy is I would say even before you apply for a job because I think that's a reality of your situation and we I think from a philosophical perspective on the website also feel that taking good theory and putting it into practice is particularly in this community extremely important, but also I can't kind of think speaks to this community and what they want to see from us on the more academic side

Monteigne 10:06
Absolutely, there were a lot of theories that have also been developed within recent years Since 2017 we're seeing a lot of new things about veteran identity and military transitions And so we wanted to make sure that we covered that gap in the research that was there surrounding veteran identity and veteran transition just kind of some of these newer topics that are coming up surrounding military connected students So the book also really covers some new research that's out there as well

Kelly 10:36
That's fantastic. Go ahead, Paul

Paul 10:38
I was just gonna add We were very also very intentional about the user right so not just for graduate students But staff and tea, right? And so there's intention about putting reflection questions in there for discussion case studies like tips for practitioners, so we wanted it to be very user friendly and this might lead into your next question too But we also realized very quickly that the student voices weren't often represented within the book itself and so that was one of the main things that we wanted to make sure was included in this new book

Kelly 11:12
you guys were referencing You know bringing theory into practice, so you Paul you set me up well there with this this concept here and it's talking about chapter one and the idea of co-production and The definitions incorporating military connected students into the design and delivery of campus support services Comely-known as we said co-production So why is co-production so critical? Why did you guys feel like this had to be discussed in this book?

Paul 11:37
We all work with students in some capacity But I think we recognize that students are their content experts of their own world of their own experience and so Both Montan and I understand co-production as designed Not just for students, but with students and so We could Create the most well-intentioned programming, but if the student voice is not involved, right? It could potentially be a flop or not design well.

Andy 12:05
I love in the first chapter how Abbey Kinch from a student veterans of America puts out four different
Actual people who are connected in this way and the first quote in there is from Maria Who's a U. Navy and undergrad student student first-generation student single mother and a member of an officer of her own student veteran organization at her school She says being who I am and looking like I do I've never felt like I fit anywhere, but that it also is what motivates me to build spaces Others like me do you feel seen and that really kind of hits the nail right on the head of what you all were trying to accomplish Which is getting a student voice in there which I think going back Back taking theory into practice You're setting yourselves up for success When you start getting those voices incorporated and responding to what they're reflecting to you

Monteigne 13:05
Paul and I are both I or both military connected but we are no longer students since we want to ensure that our students are represented in the work that we do. Abby's chapter was extremely important to frame out the rest of book and how that student voice was going to be Continued through every single chapter.

Andy 13:28
I would like to point out Because you guys have done such a great job of this that there may be a lot of us who may never be students again maybe by choice will never be students again But we're all learners and I think From from this as What did you learn from putting this book together that surprised you that you never knew before

Monteigne 13:52
I think there were some up and coming theory that some of our contributing authors included in their chapters that were newer topics to me even So it's great to see how theory is still continuing to evolve in our military connected space and How that is still relevant for practitioners to consider when they're working with the population on a daily basis

Paul 14:19
Yeah, aside from how difficult it is to wrangle a bunch of a chapter offers to put something like this together I think what we learned is that this is not a static product This will keep growing. It has to keep growing. And even in the Montana and I recently presented this at a conference, and we realized, oh, this piece can be around organizational culture, for example, could be an additional asset a book like this. And so I think what I realized, I think we both realize is that is just a talking point, a starting point to continue the conversation, but certainly it's not static and going to be as the continued to grow and evolve.

Kelly 14:58
I love the fact that you guys identified a need and then did something about it. You said you look back and there wasn't an actual book or a text, and the content you found was from 2017. I get that sometimes it's difficult to wrangle and coordinate everyone, but the rewards, I'm sure, are well worth it.

Paul 15:20
Thank you for that announcement.

Andy 15:23
I want to be intentional about making sure we did shout outs to the authors. This is hard work.

Paul 15:29
Yeah.

Andy 15:31
Kelly and I have done this before. And we know with everything else, particularly Abby, that she has gone on, to find the time to sit down and concentrate and put something so well thought--

Paul 15:44
Abby is wonderful. the fact, actually, I had an opportunity to co-present with Abby for the first time as the first time I met her. And what she writes in that chapter is very authentic and true to who she is, as a presenter, as a person, and what she's really doing for the larger community for our military community, to the students. So go, Abby.

Andy 16:04
Go, Abby.
co-production here. Are there some examples or stories of how it's been implemented well? And maybe some stories about how the implementation didn't quite hit the spot that might be useful to folks who are trying to do that sort of co-production.

Monteigne 16:22
Yeah, I see co-production taking place across our A&M system campuses all the time, whether that's surrounding a Veterans Day event and a Veterans vigil on a campus. But a really great example I can speak to is a wellness initiative that's taking place at our main campus in college station. There's a partnership with the Counseling Center and the Veteran Resource Center. Where an embedded counselor is placed in the Veteran Resource Center to provide holistic wellness support. And she started off with some programming that just really didn't kind of hit the spot, right? Like students were not super receptive to it. And this is again where we are super well-intended in the work that we're trying to do, but there was no co-production. So she totally scrapped that at the end of the fall semester and was like, I just need to get students involved in this. And so bringing military students whether that was Veterans or family members into the process, they revamped the process. They renamed the program to mission wellness. So it kind of has this military connection to it. And they started designing topics that they wanted to see, whether that was about financial wellness or spiritual wellness, or time management and how that has an impact on your sleep and your physical wellness, right? So that programming just really took off this spring semester once there was student involvement and student voice and that co-production in the programming. So I was just talking to Donna yesterday about this. And now she has students showing up in her programs and being actively involved. And having collaboration with people across campus. So just that one little tweak of, let me get students involved in this process has made it hugely successful.

Paul 18:13
Yeah and I think back to the example we introduced Pave, which is the peer advisor veteran education program. And nationally recognized program to really peer-to-peer mentoring. Student veterans are trained to work with other student veterans and military connected students on campus around campus resources, academic success. Just navigating that transition. And what thought was amazing about it is that the student veterans were essentially, that were hired as part of Pave advisors. Peer advisors were doing the work and creating the programming with just a little bit of scaffolding from myself and my graduate assistant. But genuinely they were co-producing and creating these events for their peers, right in the veteran services at Cal State San Marcos. The challenge with any large project, any big change though. The veteran center itself wasn't ready for that. So we kind of introduced it a little too quickly. And it didn't launch way as successful as we did. But that's not to take anything away from University of Michigan's Pave program itself does amazing research and is very effective in that period of peer mentoring and advising component for our military connected students.

Kelly 19:28
Well, thank you to both of you for explaining those examples because I think that is prime evidence, proof that we need collaboration across all different parties and we need those student voices in the room. So that's fantastic. And the willingness on everyone's part to kind of listen and tweak, like you said, where we're necessary and improve things. So yeah, those are great examples. So hopefully people can the student voices their programming. So moving on here. I know Andy, I already referenced his excitement to discuss chapter 15.

Andy 19:59
This is what everybody has been waiting for.

Kely 19:75
So there's a couple quotes that I just wanted to bring out from that chapter. And then we'll talk about it. So the key question that assessment always seeks to understand is the degree to which the intended outcomes of a given program initiative or effort were achieved. The next quote, the entire assessment process is for not, if the results simply sit on a shelf or end up being buried in a report, rather than being used to improve the programs and initiatives being assessed. So Paul, can we talk about assessment and how not to feel consumed or defeated by it? Rather, on the flip side, we can be empowered by it.

Monteigne 20:39
So for me, assessment from the beginning is super important so that we are assessing the needs of our students when we are designing programming. Again, this is we can be well-intended, but does it meet the needs of our students? So I think things like needs assessments are really crucial to understand what our students need, what are the challenges that they are experiencing so that we can create things that support them. So I like a good needs assessment to begin with, to determine what direction we need to go. And then, of course, assessing at various points thereafter. So I don't like assessment just to determine how well we did, but I like assessment to guide the way that we are going.

Paul 21:21
Yeah, I love where you're going with that, Monteigne, because I think I see assessment as not like-- it's not about proving your worth or the value, right? It's about how can we continue to think about how are we honing this and shaping it so that it's even better? Right? It's about improving work, so less about worth more about improving work. Connecting to your example, too, we're on the needs of assessment. I was one of those bright and shiny new directors, and I'm like, I've got a great program. And I invited all the campus to come to our veteran space, and we were making these little, cute little succulent things that they could take home. And the only students that showed up to the center were non veteran military-connected students, which is good for visibility in itself. But what I realize is that we need to pulse and do that needs assessment to find out what the students really want, not what the donor wants, not what the VPSA, not what I want, right? Could fit within that vision, but essentially, it needs to be the voice of the students. What are their true needs? And so they were looking for things like, I want to know how to interview. I want to know how to get a job. And so we quickly pivoted to that programming to be more inclusive to that, those types of services.

Monteigne 22:33
I think it's also super valuable to have your students asking their peers what do they want? Like to get a true response, Paul was talking about the PAVE program and peer-to-peer resources. If you can have your student veterans asking your student veterans, what do you want, right? You're gonna get a true response that way, not like, oh what the response they think I want to hear is, but actual what their needs are and what they hope to see from your veteran resource center.

Andy 23:04
I think what's interesting here, particularly hearing the job search that came into it, when I read this chapter, I felt amazingly, I felt like a kindred spirit to the chapter, because so much in the job search process is about the goals you set. If you're setting to make it to college station, Texas, but your goal is set to go to San Marcos, you're never gonna reach your goal. And there's a great part about goals, objectives and outcomes. And I think the hardest part in this is setting yourself up for success and assessment and we writ large academia people in general. Owning our failure. When we don't meet what we're supposed to be doing, understanding the why, so like you said, Paul, or the quotas to improve the programs and initiatives being assessed to create those outcomes that we want.

Andy 24:05
In doing so, honestly, and not sugar-coating it, particularly in job search, is essential. But I could also see here as I think more and more programs want to be scalable and no two programs are exactly the same. It's so, so essential. And I think Michael Fried's chapter on this is not only very applicable to this community,
remarkably applicable to any sort of assessment about how you go pedagogy of assessment. So I've really, really enjoyed the chapter.

Monteigne 24:40
Yeah, shout out to Michael Freed for that great chapter on assessment, right? Like again, the work of our contributing authors has been incredible. And we're so fortunate that we were able to work with this great group to compile text.

Kelly 24:54
Well, Monteigne and Paul, thank you so much for this fantastic conversation It was a pleasure having you both on discussing all the fantastic chapters from your edited text. So thank you for that.

Monteigne 25:04
Thank you.

Paul 25:05
Thank you.

Andy 25:06
And thank you for listening. Whether you're part of the higher ed jobs community or the higher ed military community. It's one of our first pot podcasts. I believe that's going to be going to both of those communities. We really thank you for listening and we hope you found this to be as interesting of a conversation as we did. If you have any questions, thoughts or comments, please feel to email us at

25:28
podcast@higheredjobs. com or send us a direct message on X @HigherEdCareers. Thank you again for listening and we look forward to talking again real soon.