E20
===

[00:00:00] Andrew Hibel: Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast, I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer of HigherEdJobs and one of its co-founders.

[00:00:06] Kelly Cherwin: And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy. So today we're talking about resumes and how candidates can put their best foot forward, and we are lucky to have two guests today.

Rainer Neely, who is an executive talent partner at Clemson University with over 10 years of experience providing guidance for those, looking to make a change. Thanks for joining us, Rainer. (Thank you. Look forward to it.) And we also have Michael Scott, who's a United States Air Force veteran and talent acquisitions partner at Clemson University with 23 years of leadership and employee relations experience.

Thanks for joining us Michael. (Happy to be here.) So we understand that there's no one size fits all approach to creating a resume or a cv, but we seem to get a lot of questions over the years about formatting, what goes on the resume, what doesn't, et cetera. So, I'll start with my first question. Should candidates have different resumes and I'll, I'll dig a little deeper here.

Should they create a version that is geared towards [00:01:00] people reading it versus an ATS?

[00:01:02] Rainer Neely: My main suggestion with people I've worked with here is have a master resume. Yes, you can do different if you've been a veteran, if you're five plus 10 plus years, and you've worked in different industries. But my main suggestion is to have a master resume of your entire experience from first job to current situation.

Now, on this resume, I suggest that you have maybe three to five bullets per experience. And in those, if you're trying to beat the keyword system or an ATS system, all of your experience and skills for a position should be within those bullets. So meaning the roles that you led, supervised, or were a team member of for a company, the achievable or measurable goals that you achieved while within that company, and then they should be able to see your career progression as well within that company in time.

[00:01:54] Kelly Cherwin: So, you're saying the keywords should be in those bullet points that either a human or an ATS could pick up correct?

[00:01:59] Rainer Neely: [00:02:00] Yes. Yeah. If done correctly and effectively, yes.

[00:02:01] Michael Scott: Right. And then for each specific position, make sure that you use those duties and bullets for that position. So you have the master resume as uh, Rainer was getting to.

And then when you're applying for X position, make sure that you are highlighting those skills and those jobs that the employer's looking for, for that specific duty, for that specific job.

[00:02:29] Kelly Cherwin: Okay. I just had a question about the, the master resume that you guys referenced. And I know you said something about listing all your experience.

So another question we often get is like, how long should my resume, and I know resume obviously differs from a CV, but you know, should you be including your experience from when you were in high school and you have a four page resume. What are your, dos and don'ts in terms of that.

[00:02:51] Rainer Neely: Great question. So again, going to master resume when you're putting in for a position, I would suggest pulling the necessary items and kind of tailoring [00:03:00] that resume per the position.

So if they're looking for supervisory or being a lead type of experience, makes sure that is pulled out all the positions, let's say from high school, like I myself did a golf maintenance job. I would not put that on my resume. So only put jobs that maybe retain to the position you're putting in for now.

If you want to show that you have experience, you can simply put a bullet worked at blah blah golf course at this position during this time, but expand more on the positions that can be used and utilized to show that you're the top candidate putting in for that position.

[00:03:37] Andrew Hibel: So just to kind of clarify there, if you have three to five bullet points, if this is a position where you had previous experience, that's spot on for it.

That's the place where you should be burning all five bullet points for that position as opposed to just making a mention to not show that you have a gap in your resume.

[00:03:54] Michael Scott: Yes, that's right.

[00:03:55] Andrew Hibel: I do have a quick follow up to that and it's just a quick side note [00:04:00] cause I know we're talking mainly about resumes, but I always find it interesting, it's one of the biggest mysteries I think of, of the application process is there are people who swear by the cover letter and there are people who say they're absolutely a waste of time.

So where do you all kind of stand on that cover letter debate, and if people are gonna go to the bother of doing it, where do you believe it adds value to the application process?

[00:04:24] Rainer Neely: I'm strictly a no cover letter individual cause I suggest you have an objective in your resume that tells your full intent. So if you're looking to move to that next step within your career, have that intent in there. I see no purpose truly for a cover letter at this time.

[00:04:40] Michael Scott: From my experience working with the hiring managers for these positions, I've never had any come back and say, I'm not going to hire this person because they're the one person that didn't submit a cover letter.

They want the information, they want to see the experience. I mean, they [00:05:00] know you intend to put in for that position because you applied for the position, right? They know that that's your intention, but they really wanna get to the down and dirty of the resume. And I think this part was kind of alluded to in a part of another question, but for resumes, you don't have to have two, three pages of a resume. Put in there what's important, put in there what you want the hiring manager to see, those specific job duties, those specific responsibilities that pertain to that position. When, when we have some positions at 40, 50, 60 applicants, they don't have time to read three, four pages.

We don't use an ATS at our location. Some employers do, but they don't wanna dig. If they're not using an ATS. They don't wanna dig through pages and pages of a resume.

[00:05:53] Andrew Hibel: That does kind of segue nicely into that next question, which there is, there's disagreement in the field based on this sort [00:06:00] of what to include, what not to include.

I think that's pretty sound advice there. Let's maybe get a little bit more specific in there and maybe take a, a little bit of a case study, take a choose whatever administrative office or academic field and say, hey, if you're applying in academic advising, you should be including these things on the resume.

This is what my team is looking for, but don't include these things. What would you, talking about specifics include and not include?

[00:06:29] Michael Scott: Yeah, so one thing that I've seen when it comes to not including, I've, uh, had an individual that was applying for an administrative position and, uh, they had put on their resume that they were a painter.

And they were a coach and laid out, you know, bullets going back to what Rainer had said earlier, they, they used two, three bullets to explain what they did as a painter and what they did as a coach. Now, if I'm hiring for an administrative [00:07:00] assistant or any administrative position, that's great to know to know that you're a well-rounded individual, but that isn't showing that you can do the job that I want you to do, and I think that that is just something that's gonna be glanced over.

The hiring manager is saying like, oh, that's great. Great to know, but I said, I want somebody with five years of experience. I need to see that on paper, and I need to see the actions that they've done and the results that they had from, from doing those actions.

[00:07:31] Kelly Cherwin: Do you have anything to add about what to include and what not to include?

[00:07:34] Rainer Neely: I typically suggest six things on any resume, so I can talk more in a generality sense. One really being your personal contact info. I can't say how many times, no matter what level of hiring, I've received a resume and they don't have an email, a phone number. I've had no way and they've been a stellar candidate and I cannot get in touch.

They don't have a LinkedIn. I don't truly understand why the person applied and [00:08:00] didn't provide that information. Now, kind of a side note, regarding the contact information. Some people prefer phone, some prefer email. I strongly suggest just to make everything clean and precise, to have a work-related email.

A email that has all your submittals in one box, all of your correspondence between companies, like have a specific email designated just to your applications. Uh, for that I talked about objective. Make sure that the company knows your intent. So specifically in the recruiting world, if I'm a senior technical recruiter wanting to move to an executive or lead role, I want them to know that and I wanna highlight and tailor my resume to show such.

Regarding the minimal requirement or the preferred requirements if I have them, I wanna make sure those are presented upfront to those individuals who are hiring for this position outside of that experience in a chronological order. Again, going back to the three to five bullets, really just show the role the skill obtained or used, the measurables you [00:09:00] delivered within that company, education after that, whether you have completed, and this is somewhat a debate, you have completed a degree, or if the degree is currently in progress. If it is in progress, please put what the expected end date of that degree is gonna be, below the education, do certifications if you have any, whether it's like it, Python specific development.

Ensure that the employer knows that you have that. And then the optional sixth one for me, which is always somewhat worked and benefited me in the interview process is hobbies. So when I say hobbies have more specifics, so I, I put on mine, ping pong, I love ping pong. I've played all over the country. That that is something that will either start the conversation during the interview or you can potentially end the interview as well.

[00:09:52] Andrew Hibel: I'm, I'm ready to stop the conversation now and just talk about ping pong. I'll be clear.

[00:09:59] Kelly Cherwin: Oh, [00:10:00] well thanks Rainer, those are great tips. I actually wanna circle back to what Michael was saying earlier about how hiring managers don't wanna sort through hundreds of resumes and try to digest, and I think you guys both alluded to that you have to put the pertinent information out there. So my question is, and I know Michael, you deal with a lot of veterans, a hiring manager doesn't want to look through language that doesn't make sense to them, you know, military speak or, or prior acronyms in a different institution. So what advice do you have to people to get their resume into shape that is easily to digest by whatever person is reading it?

[00:10:34] Michael Scott: Right, and that is a huge problem when it comes to veteran. Uh, active duty members separating from the military and going into the, the job market, whether it's in higher ed or business, is that we, in the military, we write completely different. We, we write, we use a lot of jargon, we use a lot of acronyms, and it is very hard for somebody who hasn't been in [00:11:00] that world to read resumes that are just the bullets taken from your latest military evaluation and slapped onto a resume. It's hard to dig through that, to understand that you did perform those jobs, you did perform those functions that we’re looking for in the civilian. So my suggestion, every military base has, uh, if you're active duty, uh, every military base has a support center, family support center, uh, soldiers and sailors support center, go there.

Those people are paid to help you write a resume, dig through that, translate the jargon into understandable and digestible terms and polish it up. And then when you, when you see the, the job ad, um, look for those skills just like everybody else is doing. Look for those skills and say, what did I do in the military that I can [00:12:00] explain in detail?

It doesn't have to be short and brief, like on a, on a military evaluation. I can, I can spell it out now, right? We don't have to fill it with a bunch of acronyms, but explain, you need to explain how what you did directly translates to what you want to do. And I've found that, and I've gotten over some of these with Rainer actually at work, and I've showed him like, how do we dig through this?

How can we tell this veteran the better way to write this, the appropriate way to write this? How can we translate that to help 'em? And there's companies out there that you can pay to review your resume, but I would start with the support center on base. If you don't have that, if you're already separated from the military, don't have access, I would find somebody to help you translate those duties into civilian terms.

[00:12:54] Andrew Hibel: I'm gonna take a brief moment here to remind folks who are listening, we'd love to hear some of your questions that you'd be asking [00:13:00] Michael and Rainer. So please email those to us at podcast@HigherEdJobs.com or tweet us at HigherEdJobs, and we kind of want to hear what people are facing in their searches now.

I know Michael, I know Rainer are having lots of folks who are talking to them, but if you haven't had the opportunity to speak with somebody who's qualified, as two of them, let us know and we would hope to get your question in front of an expert. With that, we recently had a quick little poll on the job seeker account side of the website, and it was more than half, maybe pushing close to 60% of the people responded their job searches are taking longer than six to eight months, some in upwards of a year.

When you're working with folks today who are, who are looking for positions I've heard frequently, I think we've all heard frequently, there's almost an impression that with the way the economy is and what's happening, the job offers may be falling from the sky. All you have to do is catch one. What's your experience and advice to job seekers when they're applying [00:14:00] for a job in the process and the different steps of the process as to what to expect If you're gonna start a job search today, what should they be looking for as far as being successful, being placed in a position at a place like Clemson

[00:14:13] Michael Scott: That's a really great question. One thing that I've seen over the past year is we have so many highly qualified candidates. It's very competitive. There are many, many jobs. I mean, we have, our job boards are filled right now with positions, but for every position, we have so many highly qualified people that other highly qualified people are not getting job offers.

Right. Keep your head up, stay in the game, keep applying. I, I had somebody just recently that, you know, I, I think I've seen their application on maybe five, six different positions. And, uh, you know, I was always rooting for 'em. Like I keep seeing this name, I keep seeing John on there. [00:15:00] John, John John. And then finally John got a position.

John got the offer. You know, he, he, he got a highly qualified position and that's all it takes. You just gotta keep throwing, if you don't mind the cliche, just keep throwing the line out in the water and, and you're gonna, you're gonna catch the fish, right? You're going to get the position, but the competition's so tough, you just have to hang in there.

[00:15:25] Andrew Hibel: That’s great advice. Thank you.

[00:15:26] Kelly Cherwin: So, I'm gonna switch over to a question dealing with people who have decided to opt out of work for particular reasons, maybe because of the pandemic, or maybe they took a leave of absence because of a military service or, or some other type of leave of absence. How does someone explain this gap on their resume, and how can they turn this into, you know, an advantage instead of making it look like a disadvantage?

[00:15:48] Rainer Neely: So, if you find yourself in a situation where you're being asked about a gap during an interview, whether due to furthering your education, pandemic, or in between jobs. Typically, my advice is to just address it head on [00:16:00] and provide only really the information you feel comfortable sharing, but having the confidence to ask somewhat of this follow up question, does this gap cause any worry regarding my overall capabilities in performing this position in question and then just kind of pause. And then if you wanna do some more research and then this is just my opinion. Have two to three bullets on why you feel and what experience you've obtained to be able to perform this job successfully. And that if seen, regarding gaps in a negative light, that will help twist that and spin that into a positive light and help reassure the hiring manager as well that you can perform at this task no matter what length of gap there is on your resume.

[00:16:44] Michael Scott: I think that I've only seen this come up in the last year, maybe twice, where there was a question about the gap. And then personally, I, I had to reassure them, it's, it was 2020, right? It's 2021. People stayed at [00:17:00] home, people made the choice to be safe or not go in or focus on homeschooling their children.

But you know, you gotta take it head on, just like Rainer said. There's no point in sugarcoating it. If you made the decision to do that, that's fine. I mean, it shouldn't be held against you, but if the question comes up, be prepared to answer the reasoning behind it.

[00:17:23] Kelly Cherwin: I love that advice. In terms of the actual resume, do you think it's better to just truly have that gap and put nothing there?

Or should someone put 2020 to 2022, decided to be a caregiver? Do they need to explain the gap on the resume or should they explain it in an interview?

[00:17:40] Rainer Neely: I'd suggest whatever's comfortable for you. If the hiring manager sees it, they're typically gonna ask about it or maybe they won't. So I've seen people leave the gap out and explain cause sometimes people can't fully explain or feel comfortable with their reasoning behind that gap. So they leave it out either way. So I've seen both.

[00:17:58] Andrew Hibel: I'd probably just add a quick add [00:18:00] on here with the great resignation going on now, if part of the reason for the gap has led, led to your thinking about doing something different, that maybe you leave your job at Clemson and you're going on the professional ping pong tour to play professional ping pong here, and sitting at home through the pandemic has made you realize that that's the dream you wanna realize.

I think that's actually a great way to start telling that story a little bit better, and I, I'll go back to your cover letter advice. I'd probably put that in your objective, realized through the pandemic that I was inspired to do this and that was the gap for it.

[00:18:35] Michael Scott: And I mean, I, I think most people that I've talked to who didn't work or stayed home during those two years, they worked on individual skills.

They learned something new. They read up on some books. So there is a way to spin it, right? There's a way to, to put, during that time I did this and learned this and obtained these skills. There's a way to put that in there from [00:19:00] professionals that I've spoke to. There's very few that stayed at home and played video games for two years straight.

But I mean, that may be your career choice, right? I mean, that may be what you wanna do and you might be able to spend that too. People that I've spoke to, they were doing something during that time.

[00:19:18] Kelly Cherwin: I have a follow up question on a, an earlier discussion we were having in terms of the resumes and military, but this can go to all job seekers.

I once sat in on a session and the presenter said, oftentimes veterans will undersell their skills. You know, they're not able to translate what they did in the military to how they actually could apply that to higher ed. And I'm sure other job seekers are doing this as well, they're just not selling themselves as much as they should.

Have you guys seen that before and do you have any advice on, um, you know, to our job seekers on how to take that advantage and really sell yourself?

[00:19:49] Michael Scott: I think there's a reason behind that too, right? Just to start with that, I think that when we're in the military, we get taught to be part of a team, [00:20:00] and that the group accomplishment and the team accomplishment is more important than the individual.

And I have this problem too. I think it's hard to try to promote myself, you know, promote myself through explaining what I've done. And I, I think that's just inherent to, number one, understanding that you're part of a bigger thing. And the other thing is, while we're in the military, we get taught so many valuable skills, but it's what we do every day, right?

It's what we did every day when it comes to leading people and managing and mentoring and counseling. And all the things that we do. And we do it every day and it just becomes normal. Almost like breathing or, or walking, or something like that, you know? And I think it's hard to say how breathing impacts the job, if you know what I mean.

It's like, it's hard to explain something that is, has become so much of a second nature to you and how that is [00:21:00] important and how that translates to helping me find a job. It just seems something that I just normally do. And, uh, I don't think we get a lot of instruction on how to translate that, you know?

And I think that goes back to what we were talking about with translating the jargon. You have to really dig in what were these everyday skills that I used? What were these things that I took for granted that I learned at such a young age in my career in the military? And how do I translate that to the civilian world?

A lot of folks that I work with now, great supervisors, great leaders, they didn't get that kind of instruction. They didn't get that kind of everyday leadership and hands on mentoring that you did in the military. So be able to speak on that, be able to translate it, and if you can’t, find somebody who can help you translate that.

[00:21:55] Kelly Cherwin: Thank you, Michael. That's that's great advice. I just wanted to ask one follow up question to Rainer. You're a prime [00:22:00] example. We often get questions from our readers and listeners about how. They can break into higher ed, how can they translate their experience from corporate or you know, customer service or something like that.

And I know you recently moved into higher ed, so how did you translate your skills into how to be applicable to Clemson?

[00:22:20] Rainer Neely: I got a little lucky. So recruiting around all the field agency or corporate, um, really has the same like head hunting mentality. If you like the hunt, you can do it really anywhere. So my journey was a little easier than most, but I go back to preparation.

Read the position. If you have anyone in your small circle who's in that role, talk with them. Have them read over your resume. Have a recruiter like myself. Look over your resume. Always suggest having two pairs of extra eyes. Review your completed resume, one in your industry and one outside of your industry who can help find any gaps in the communication that you're trying to [00:23:00] present to a hiring manager regarding a hired position.

[00:23:02] Andrew Hibel: I know I'm speaking on behalf of Kelly and the entire HigherEdJobs team in saying this, that, and Michael actually goes to your thought about, there's some things that are just ingrained in you that you just kind of take for granted. I think after all these years, sometimes we forget to say this out loud regularly, but if you're that person who's looking to get into higher education, the wonderful thing about higher education is if there's a discipline or administrative office in higher education, there's an association that serves that discipline or administrative office extremely well.

Research that association, get involved with that association, learn about each one of those administrative offices that you might be interested in, or if you're interested in the academic side, learn about the academic side and start engaging. And if you engage there, you're gonna find out exactly what the career path and the career ladder is for that particular career within [00:24:00] higher ed.

That is not only a great place to start, it's a great place throughout your career to support you in that. So once again, we cannot recommend the relationship with professional association more than we do. This will be the last question. Maybe you could be very succinct with this and we could go to the bonus round, Um, when should a candidate create a professional online portfolio and how can they bring attention to it in the hiring process?

[00:24:25] Rainer Neely: So this is a newer item in the recruitment world or the interviewing world. So an online portfolio is typically used for a graphic design, marketing, web developer type of position.

They can be extremely useful for being able to show the type of quality work candidate can provide for a position, but the two ways I've seen them is one, they've attached the online portfolio to their application. Therefore, given anyone looking at that applicant's information, an opportunity to see their level of work.

And then two, which is [00:25:00] a little more confident in my opinion, is providing the QR code of your portfolio on your resume. Now the two spots I've seen it are on the top, on either corner or the last page of your resume. But with link to your resumes, the front is typically the spot to put that QR code for the online portfolio.

[00:25:20] Andrew Hibel: One follow up to that. You've scanned the online portfolio, you've gone into the attachment and what's in that does not necessarily match what's in the resume. How is that handled from your perspective?

[00:25:31] Rainer Neely: We crosscheck and it's gonna get pulled out during the interview cause that would be something spoken about between recruiter to hiring manager or recruiter to candidate.

Cause we don't wanna represent any candidates on the agency as being seen as a liar. And we don't wanna represent on the corporate side to our employer, cause that shows that the recruiter doesn't know what they're doing. So you have to do your research on the hiring side and it's communication between the hiring manager and candidate or recruiter and candidate that would help decipher.

[00:25:58] Andrew Hibel: So is it fair to say if [00:26:00] you're gonna offer an online portfolio, it better match perfectly to what your story you're telling on the resume?

[00:26:05] Michael Scott: Yeah. That's right. That's right.

[00:26:09] Kelly Cherwin: I know you said that was the last question, but I actually, I do have one last fun question, I think, and it is regarding memorable resumes, either good or bad.

I'm just curious, have you guys had any resumes that stick out? Like obviously a lot of electronic, but have you received resumes that have, I don't know, like hearts all over it or like things that people should not do, or things were like, wow, that that actually really got my attention in a good way. Anything to share?

[00:26:33] Rainer Neely: So the first time I saw our QR code blew my mind. Because I, I was still somewhat new to the QR code being mentioned on resumes, but it makes all of your documents very accessible and now they actually have cards that you can just have a QR code on that you can scan at networking events that have all of your LinkedIn, Twitter any type of of online portfolio that allows you to represent yourself better.

[00:26:58] Michael Scott: You know, it goes back to what we [00:27:00] talked about before because I look at a lot of veteran resumes and they're just completely filled with acronyms and jargon that no one understands. I mean, I was in the Air Force, right? I wasn't in the Navy or the Army, and so I don't even know what their acronyms mean, and I was in that world, right?

And so there was just one that was two full pages of acronyms and jargon. No one's gonna be able to dig through that. And then I know that this is something that you are interested in knowing about too, is putting pictures on the resumes. And I know Rainer, Rainer's gonna lose it, because this is one of his, you know, he, he, yeah.

But, uh, pictures on the resumes too. I mean, for a time I think that that was kind of the norm to do that. But I think right now, if you're putting your picture on there, you're setting yourself up for potential discrimination or a potential advantage, I guess it could be either way, depending on the organization that you're going into, [00:28:00] but it really can put your employer into a bad position because now they see this and now they have to make the decision, well, we know this.

Do we go with this because they presented it or do we not? And it just creates this big DEI situation that it just, it's not fair to the employer or to yourself. You shouldn't really sell yourself short or any type of discrimination, whether it's race or age or sex or anything like that. So put your name, put your contact information, but Rainer and I were just talking about this yesterday. You're gonna get looked up on LinkedIn, you're gonna get looked up on Facebook or whatever you put on there. So, if the employer wants to find that information, they're gonna do it. So, there's no need in filling up space on your cover letter or your resume with a picture, because really that's not relevant to the search.

We really just wanna know, do you have the skills? Do you [00:29:00] have the education? Do you have the ability? So putting that picture on there makes it memorable in the aspect that we don't really want you to do that.

[00:29:09] Andrew Hibel: I'm really happy you shared that, Michael, and I feel like. I wouldn't want anybody listening to get the impression that what we didn't really address was equity issues and how the application process goes in higher ed.

Maybe you guys might be interested to come back and maybe with a larger group, we have a conversation about the use of blind screenings in higher ed and where it should be used and maybe it should become a better best practice or suggested practice. There are so many issues. I mean, if you go to an institution that's affiliated with you name it we can start with religion. Go in other directions. If you went to one of those institutions by just putting your degree on there, you could be disclosing information that creates some of those same issues as putting a picture on there, right? Or your experience could say that what? What should we be doing?

How should we be handling it? Just saying we realize that that's something out there that we're all [00:30:00] coming to terms with individually as institutions, as a profession. The purpose of this conversation was not to dive deep into those, but to look at the nuts and bolts of applying for positions and using your resume.

So for folks out there who do have questions and want to dive deep into that, that's definitely on our list of topics that we'd like to cover. It's important so, but I appreciate you saying that. With that, we just want to thank you for being on. It's been a wonderful conversation. And once again, for folks listening, if you have any questions or feedback, please reach out to us at podcast@HigherEdJobs.com or tweet us at HigherEdJobs. And thank you Kelly, for another wonderful, uh, conversation.

[00:30:42] Kelly Cherwin: Thanks Rainer. Thanks Michael. It was great.

[00:30:43] Andrew Hibel: and, uh, we look forward to talking the next time. Have a great day.