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[00:00:00] Andrew Hibel: Welcome to the HigherEdJobs Podcast. I'm Andy Hibel. I'm the chief operating officer and a co-founder of HigherEdJobs. Today we get to discuss the topic has changed management, become a hireable skill?

[00:00:15] Kelly Cherwin: And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy here at HigherEdJobs. We're excited today to have our first in studio guest, Matt Trainum, who is a senior strategy consultant in higher education at Credo.

So Matt, before we get deep into the question regarding change management being a hireable skill or not, I'd like to get your take on the definition first of change management in higher ed.

[00:00:37] Matt Trainum: Thanks for having me wonderful to be invited into this conversation. So, appreciate that very much. So, for a definition of change management, it's it's what are we doing in our positions to create the change and the reality in the world that we want.

And so how are we bringing to life what we are imagining for our position, for our organization, for our department, for our student learning outcomes. To me, all of that is about managing [00:01:00] change. So that's where I start with that.

[00:01:02] Andrew Hibel: Moving the conversation forward, as change applies to a hireable skill, how would you define a hireable skill and how a change management applies to that skill?

[00:01:13] Matt Trainum: So here is why I love being invited into this conversation with yall. You can go on HigherEdJobs website right now. And you can look at all of the different positions that are listed, and you'll see so many different things that are all about change, all these different little keywords that are about change.

I actually went to your website and I wrote some down. So if you look at job descriptions, here's some synonyms for change for, for change management as a hireable skill. So here's some, I just picked right out of just two or three job descriptions. I looked at. Verbs like improve something, fix something, perfect something, enhance something. All of that is about changing something. They're asking you to come in and change something they've got. And then there's what you might call it characteristics like agile, future focused, adaptable. Have you seen a job description that doesn't say [00:02:00] adaptable or agile or future focused?

Like that's, it's all over the place. And then you have things like bring cutting edge solutions. Deploy best practices. All of that is this idea of change. And I would even take it a, a little bit further and say that if you go through a, a job description, usually there's a part at the end that is kind of less about the position and less about the person and more about the organization.

And usually in that part, there's gonna say something like bring to life, our vision, manifest our mission, innovate to achieve our global objectives. It's gonna say things like that, which are all about changing whatever is currently there. And so to this idea of like what, what is in a job description that is about change management?

Every, every position is about keeping what we really like and then changing all of those other pieces. And I think you can find that for a position from a president to an entry level role coming in and saying, what are we gonna change? What are we gonna do different? That's

[00:02:52] Andrew Hibel: That’s fantastic.

[00:02:54] Kelly Cherwin: I love that answer. And thank you for bringing in job descriptions from HigherEdJobs.

[00:02:57] Matt Trainum: Right? I mean, they're, that's awesome. They're right off of the [00:03:00] page. Yeah. Every, all of them have that. I mean, has anyone, has anyone had the job description that said we would like someone to come in who won't change anything who can keep exactly everything as it is, who is not adaptable.

I mean, imagine the opposite would like someone to come in here and in here who is completely stagnant please come all stagnant people apply stagnant people to the front. So it's, it's all about creating change.

[00:03:21] Andrew Hibel: So I'm gonna telegraph myself a little bit here, so it doesn't get you completely off guard.

Yeah. I'm gonna flip over to governance. Being here in Chicago and raised a bulls fan. I often think what would happen to Michael Jordan had he been drafted number two and gone to Portland? As opposed to number three and go to the Bulls. The system that you're put into oftentimes creates the opportunity to be a change agent to practice that skill of change management.

And I know you're someone who works very closely with the governance of a good number of colleges and universities. How does a board set the tone to create a [00:04:00] culture of change that enhances their staff and leadership to truly be able to use that change skill that they have?

[00:04:09] Matt Trainum: Okay. Love this question on governance. I have in the last year, been with dozens of different boards from institutions that are exceptional and are not going anywhere with super huge endowments to institutions that are, are struggling.

And when I look at governance here was the first answer that really came to my mind. The best boards are boards that understand that what they want for their students is a fantastic experience, not their fantastic experience. And so what is a current right experience for the students who are at this institution at this moment?

Not what was the experience that I love, not what were the five things that I most enjoyed back 40 years ago. Or what I perceive is somehow necessary, but what is right for the students who are at my institution? So first I think it starts with a grounding. What are we doing here? And we're serving [00:05:00] current students with current needs different than what I might imagine.

So that's a that's first is how are we grounded as a board in what our work is? Most of the boards I am with, they sense the urgency. They actually sense the urgency more than people on campus, because they're being fed by streams of information that are constantly urgent around the status of higher ed.

If you're sitting in an institution. Things don't seem too, too urgent. You know, you go to class, you teach a little bit, you do things this, and there, and institutions have urgency. So I'm not saying that, but boards don't have the normalcy of sitting within the institution. And so they get all of this urgency that comes to them.

Your question is around how do you create permission for your campus to innovate and to be different? Let me share with you a story. I was speaking with a president who was sharing a merger that almost happened. And he talked about how the, this institution, his institution, and this other institution had gotten all the way basically to where they were walking down the aisle.

It really is the right comparison. They were at the end, they had shared all their [00:06:00] financials. They had done everything. The documents were on the table to sign. The preacher was in front of him delivering the vows. And all you had to do was say, I do. And the other one say I do. And the other institution, at the altar said, well, wait a minute. What about our mission statement? We don't get to keep our mission statement? We should be able to keep our mission statement. And this president looked at me and he said, Matt, our mission statements are almost identical, but they didn't understand even at that point that they were gonna have to let go of things as an institution to be able to, to keep alive.

And so I think there's this wonderful question of what are we willing to let go of? What are we not willing to let go of what are we trying to preserve as an institution, whether you're merging or not merging, whether you're trying to change, what do we have to preserve? What is essential to who we are and what is not essential?

And the not essential has to all be up for grabs, gotta be able to change all of that. So the best boards are able to really clearly say, here's, what's essential. Here's what's not [00:07:00] essential. And the not essential needs to be pretty wide.

[00:07:03] Andrew Hibel: The board setting that tone of what is essential and what's not essential, seems like a very key starting point to allowing change to happen within the organization.

When you look at a community college, or you look at a four year state institution, or you look at a private, uh, liberal arts college, any other type of institution, it's great to set that tone, but you have to have leadership and staff then practice the ability to prioritize along with the governance.

What's in your opinion, what's the key factors in allowing that change to then permeate the entire culture?

[00:07:37] Matt Trainum: Yeah, let me share a couple that we talk about at Credo. First is, and most central is clarity on what's most important right now what's most important, right? I mean, if you sit at an institution, what is most important for that particular institution?

What are they trying to do? I I've been with an institution that has a first year retention rate of about 37%. There was no urgency or [00:08:00] no realization that retention was the single most important thing. There was no clarity, retention is what we need to focus on. And so the first thing is this idea that you have permission to change, which is what we were just talking about.

You have permission to change all of these things that are, that are non-essential to the core operation. And there's a lot that goes into that. But once we get to that, then there's this idea of then what are we trying to do? What are we trying to change? What is it that we're moving toward? And so clarity is super important.

What's most important right now what's most important right now. Is it? Retention is an enroll. Is it social justice issues, what is gonna be most important? How can we balance? We have room for two or three things to really clearly balance. So clarity is most important. Alignment is next, or we are working toward that same goal?

Can we prioritize that? Let me give you an example. I hear so many institutions talking about how career is central. We're gonna make sure students get career outcomes. By the way, there is 20 years, two decades of [00:09:00] research that says career outcomes are most essential for students. People, we, we know this is clear.

I will work with some campuses and they will go through exhaustive conversations about what to do for more career outcomes. And their answer will be, we're gonna have two additional seminars. We're gonna have two more meetings with students about career. That kind of thing. Compare that to one of the institutions I work with, where their solution to, how to talk about career more was to work with faculty and to say, what if every time you have a class, once a semester, you take a class session and talk about career, whatever way you want.

You could be a be teaching medieval history and you could talk about careers in medieval history. You could be a chemistry professor and you could bring a friend in, who's doing another career that you might have gone to college with a friend, and he can talk about his career. You could take time and talk about how you got to your career path, but you're gonna, every faculty member is gonna agree to have a conversation on career.

If you do the math every semester, those students are hearing five different conversations on career. Roll that out over a couple semesters. By the [00:10:00] time they're a junior, they're gonna have all these different ideas in their head from career because that particular institution made an actual commitment to align around that.

So, you have this idea of clarity what's most important for them. They said we wanna make sure careers front and center. We have this idea of alignment. To say, we're all going to move toward that. And then there's this idea of, can we get there fast enough? I might call it agility. I think I said agility earlier.

So, can we change fast enough? So, what if that same institution that I just described, that's trying to roll that out, decided to roll it out over 10 years. I don't know how important it is if we're not going that fast. So the answer that I get to, to that question and what we talk with folks about all the time is, is it clear to campus what's most important?

Where are we giving our urgency? Our urgency is a gift. Where are we gonna give it?

[00:10:45] Kelly Cherwin: I'm gonna circle back to your example of the job descriptions. And I think we've determined how important change on campus is. So, I know you're talking about, what's included in a job description. So, flipping to the employer side and the job seeker side, [00:11:00] how does an employer determine someone that they are considering if they would be good for their team to help in this change management process, going back to the topic of change management, being a hireable skill.

So how does a search committee interviewing committee identify if that person sitting there in front of them has that ability to embrace and, and make a clear effort to help their campus change? If that question made sense.

[00:11:28] Matt Trainum: Yeah. I love it, I love it, let me use the word problem for a minute. If we accept the idea that there is a lot of change that people are seeking when someone comes into a position, if we accept that has a, has a likely possibility, then we have to say, what are they trying to change? And when we talk about that, we start getting into this question of what's the problem? Now you might say opportunity, I'm gonna use problem, but we'll use those interchangeably.

So, what is the problem that is in front of us? So if, if I'm looking for a candidate, I'm looking for a candidate who understands how to decipher the problem and move toward a solution for a problem. So [00:12:00] if I have, if I have a problem, let's, let's call it retention. So whose problem is retention?

[00:12:05] Kelly Cherwin: It should be the whole campus. Um, everyone's problem.

[00:12:08] Matt Trainum: Right? Here's what I love about that answer. It's not the student's problem. No student shows up to campus and goes, I hope I'm retained today. Right? I hope this year's a good year and I get retained. Retention is an institutional goal. The institution achieves its goal by solving a problem for the student.

And part of the issue here, when we talk about retention is we're approaching it the way that we were just talking about it here, which is from the institution's lens. So we're gonna solve retention by trying to solve retention. When, if we go what's the real problem here, the real problem here is the students don't have a sense of belonging.

The real problem here is we're not providing services in a way that students can receive the real problem here is our financial aid statements are confusing. So it's the identification of the problem. So when I'm looking for a candidate, I'm trying to find a candidate who can help identify the problem.

What's the problem who's facing that problem, who can help solve that problem. And I think we can get really stuck into thinking that [00:13:00] our problems are our users problems, our consumers problems, our students problems. And typically those are not, we have to get out of our own mindset. That's what I look for. I look for someone who can solve a problem.

[00:13:11] Andrew Hibel: I think looking at the other side of that is how do you know what you shouldn't be changing? And what are the effects when you try to change something that maybe you shouldn't have?

[00:13:21] Matt Trainum: What I would love is what I see at a variety of campuses I work with, which is intentional conversations right now about that question.

What a beautiful question to have out loud, to have with a community. What is essential to who we are? Is it essential by the way that we have a campus? It's a, a great one to start it. Cuz most people go to, yes. Is it essential? A lot of institutions right now are saying, is it essential that our mascot is what it is?

What is part of our identity that we don't wanna change? The fascinating thing I find about when we talk about change in institutions is I think it's very similar to each of us, as individuals sitting in this room and listening to this conversation about change as individuals, [00:14:00] what am I willing to change to get what I want out of my life?

What am I willing as an organization to change, to get to where I want to be as an organization? I think those are really parallel conversations. I know for me, it is so hard to change habits. It's so hard to do anything different. It's so hard, frankly, to pick up new skills and to try new things. And if that's just me as a case study of one, and now I multiply that out across an institution, that's gonna be really hard.

So the first place I go to your question is what I do see at institutions I'm working with, which are having this conversation out loud. What is essential to who we are? What is most important to what we're doing right now? The wonderful thing about that conversation is for many schools that will boil down pretty quickly to serving students.

It'll boil down pretty quickly to helping students access something that they won't have access to. Without that particular institution that focus on students is a wonderful foundation that you can get a lot done from. So that's the first answer is that idea of let's have a conversation on campus about it.[00:15:00]

My second part goes a little bit into a direction of that question, which is, I, I think there's two, let's call them management philosophies, and one is I'm the boss and your job is to help me do my job. That's a, that's a frequent perspective. And then the other one is I'm the boss. And my job is to help you do your job.

Two very different perspectives. The thing I, I love about this is then what we realize is the definition, the pivot is not so much in the leadership person's position, which I do think is really important, but let's say that second one, which maybe I've offered has the way that is this idealistic beautiful way, right?

The boss is gonna help everybody do their job. Then we get into this fascinating piece of what is their job that I think is the heart of the question. So we go back to where we started, what are we trying to change? What is it that we're trying to change? And so if I'm trying to help you do your job, what do you think your job is?

Let me share an example. I stand in front of hundreds [00:16:00] of staff and faculty at institutions all the time. And I, I play a game. I really do. I hate to say that, but I play a little bit of a game and I say, who here would change 1% of what you do, if it would help students be more successful or the institution be more success.

How many hands do you think go up to that? A hundred percent everybody's hand goes up. Everybody's hand goes up. I would change 1% of what I do. And then I start with my slight trick and I say, what about 2%? What about 10? Would you be willing to change 10% of what you do? 20? Why does it start becoming more uncomfortable?

I think this goes to this idea of definition of what is my job. I have an agreement. I have an idea of what my job is. So beyond a philosophical, theoretical conversation of what is essential to who we are, what does it mean to change? I think that that's an, a fantastic conversation to be having. I also think there's a down on the ground conversation of what is my job.

I have [00:17:00] no doubt that people on campus right now are working their tails off. It is an exhausting moment on campuses. I think they're doing valuable things. I'm with them. I see them do valuable things. I'm not convinced they're doing the most valuable thing for students or for their institution's success.

[00:17:18] Andrew Hibel: I've always been a big fan of the management expert Peter Drucker in his book, managing for results. There's a little nugget that I've always kind of thought of that really kind of shapes for me where this conversation puts you as an individual. And if you're, if you're seeking a job or pursuing your career in higher education, how do you really look to position yourself and articulate your position on change and how you can help change adapt?

Uh, Matt, you pulled out all those words out of those job postings. Choose your word there. But Peter Drucker said the purpose of the work on making the future is not to decide what should be done tomorrow, but what [00:18:00] should be done today to have a tomorrow. As a professional in higher education as a faculty member in higher education, as a leader in higher education, what would you say for candidates and professionals to be able to internalize that and demonstrate their commitment to spend some of their professional bandwidth, not to just think of the organization they are today. But also think of what the organization that they should be tomorrow.

[00:18:25] Matt Trainum: Every leader I sit with is trying to solve a problem. Usually a whole lot of them candidates who show up, not pitching themselves, but pitching their ability to solve problems are the candidates that folks are looking for.

[00:18:43] Andrew Hibel: Matt, I think that's a terrific place to leave this conversation. I think candidates out there who think about how they could be part of the solution to the, the challenges that face the campus are the ones that are the most attractive to employers, but more importantly are going to be the employees who find the most satisfaction in the work that they do, [00:19:00] whether it's making student life experience better or having a better run university.

We're working with legislators in your state to get more state support for your state institution. Those make a big difference in the lives of students, as well as the community that you reside. Thank you for spending the time with us today and reminding us that we all should be helping seek a solution that's best for the organization we work for and reminding us of what's good in ourselves.

[00:19:23] Matt Trainum: Hey, it was wonderful to be here. Thank you.

[00:19:26] Andrew Hibel: Thank you, Matt.

I think it's great to really think strategically about search and how it's different in 2021. But I also think it's kind of cool to think about your career. If you're not in an active job search currently, what should you be doing in 2021? That is good habits to build a career. And I think we came across something that we think is pretty interesting on that.

And that's the idea of kind of adding daily discipline of things you can do to help your career.

[00:19:56] Kelly Cherwin: Andy, I like the word that you used previously when you said strategic. And I think [00:20:00] that's what we have to remember, whether you're in an active job search or you're, you know, currently employed and trying to think about where you're going in the future.

The point is thinking about where you're going in the future, having a plan being strategic. So I know we came across an article regarding advancing your career and some of the tips were phenomenal. And, you know, it's may maybe start thinking about, you know, when you're on a road trip and you're getting in the car, it's very rare that you just start going somewhere without a plan, without a destination.

I think that's what people have to think. In their career, like what are their ultimate goals and how they're going to get there. And part of it is doing these daily things being disciplined. And for me, what it really boils down to is being authentic in whatever you're doing. So if it's interacting with people on campus, if it's networking, if it's reaching out to someone through email, truly being genuine.

[00:20:48] Andrew Hibel: I think the authenticity is so important in whatever you do to do it authentically because at the end of the day, you can say, well, when I get the job, when I get the job, when I get the job, they're [00:21:00] not getting the version of you that is the inauthentic version you're going to be you. So you might as well be you in the interview to see if that's really who you are. And if you're gonna be you in the interview, it should start as you at the beginning, let yourself shine through in what you do. But before we go too far into these tips, I just wanna take a brief pause because I feel like when we start talking about daily discipline, we're already losing a bunch of folks who are saying no, no, no, I'm not the sort of daily discipline person.

I don't do things daily. And I sure as heck in 2021, don't have the time to put effort into my career. Every single day. That's fair. It doesn't have to be every single day taking a break here and there. Absolutely okay. If you hit three or four days a week, that's great too. But I think the things that we're thinking about are small little things.

It's taking five minutes away from putting down your phone and doing whatever you do for a break for five minutes and putting those five minutes and do something that is career related for you. And it's not just something to find your next job. It's something that [00:22:00] makes your career more fulfilling. It's not just looking at job postings, it's thinking about, oh, what do I wanna learn more about what I do that makes me better at it, or makes the enjoyment of what I do greater.

So if you're that person stick with us and see if some of these things resonate with you, and if you can only incorporate a few times a week and not every day, the little bit that you do week after week after week will add up into so. Much more substantive. If you can bring it into a regular discipline.

I think the discipline part of it is more important that the daily part of it make it part of your regular routine.

[00:22:35] Kelly Cherwin: Very true. And I, I like that. It, it doesn't have to be every single day. And I think we have to be forgiving ourselves if it's Monday and Wednesday one week, or if we wrap things up, but just setting a common routine that is helping us.

That's a great point, Andy, thank you for bringing that up. Like I mentioned, we were talking about an article that Justin Zackal wrote for us and is titled send these five weekly emails to advance your career. And I, I think we can agree that there's more than just [00:23:00] five things that we can do to be strategic in our career.

I know he was talking about five because it was, you know, Monday through Friday, but like you said, it doesn't have to be Monday through Friday. I know. Oftentimes I do things on Sunday to prepare myself for the week. There's a couple things that stood out here. And for example, I'll just start with what he suggested on Monday and it's lifting up a stranger.

He said something to the fact of seeing someone on campus or sending a cold email. And it's amazing what a, a smile or a hello or a compliment on you did a, a great presentation or that was a great lecture. Or I heard that your students gave you a great rating. Like just connecting with someone how good it can make you feel.

And that's what he said. You'll feel good. They'll feel good. And who knows this new weak tie can lead to future opportunities. So kind of going back to what I was saying before, I truly think you have to be authentic and not just complimenting someone to be like, oh, maybe I can add them to my LinkedIn profile, but truly being genuine and why you're saying it, making them feel good and making yourself feel good.

And who knows, like you said, it can, it can start this weak tie. [00:24:00] It could start a relationship and you guys could be on a committee together and it's a win-win for both sides. So.

[00:24:06] Andrew Hibel: Totally agree. And I think you can really broaden that. And the idea here is, and I know when I hear the word cold call, whether I'm receiving a cold call or I'm making a cold call, both of them are not things that are gonna really speak to me.

That will be that day. That week I'll skip the cold call. But what this to me is, is making a connection, make a connection with somebody authentically. As to something you share common interest with, you saw a presentation that you thought was good. There was a posting on a list serve that you're on, that you thought was great.

Reach out to somebody and, and make that connection. A cold call is something that is much more transactional. It doesn't need to be transactional. It just needs to be authentic. And I think that kind of talking to faculty who may be listening, I think faculty in particular, because of the richness of, of what you do and the depth of the knowledge and just the inherent fact of sharing knowledge is part of what you are on campus to do.

I think the [00:25:00] opportunity to make those connections is so rich. So really think about your colleagues across campus, cross discipline, and make those connections, but also across the country, there's lots of opportunities to make those connections and seek them out authentically. You'll be surprised when people aren't being cold called, but are being reached out to, and trying to connect with I think people are much more receptive

[00:25:23] Kelly Cherwin: to that, so true. And yeah, I'm glad you brought out the point of taking away the cold. The cold part does sound a little bit scary and like, oh, salesy or something that people don't wanna do. So making a connection is a great way to put it. So speaking of connections, another point on the list that Justin had was bumping up a dormant relationship.

And I think this can, we can tie this into, um, again, you know, seeing someone on campus that you might have not seen in a long time or reaching out to someone on, on LinkedIn. And I like that he put sure they might ignore you, but the reward is far greater than the risk of annoying someone. So I think that kinda leads me into the, the other point about taking risks and putting yourself [00:26:00] out there sometimes. I know Andy, you and I have talked about pushing ourselves sometimes, professionally, even though it's not comfortable, but it helps us grow. And that's the whole point of this conversation we're trying to grow and advance our career. So connect with someone and take that risk.

[00:26:15] Andrew Hibel: I’m glad we went in this direction because I think it's the natural follow up to the making the connection. If you're gonna make the connection and you make this connection, there's no reason to say, well, it's great. We made the connection. Let's connect with them on LinkedIn. And now we're done having a dialogue. How do you continue that dialogue? The word dormant for me, there might be relationships that maybe wait a little bit longer than you should to make that follow up on.

Hey, that's okay. We're all busy. It's alright. But also that's the whole point of connecting. If you connected with them in the first place and made this connection, you should wanna follow up with it. I'll say this. I think you're having a really good week if you make a new connection and you follow up on a connection, you already have that's a week that's extremely positive for making your career more fulfilling.

Cause [00:27:00] at the end of the year, you will have made 50 new contacts and 50 follow up contacts. However, what I will tell you if you're actually doing that. If you make 50 new connections, you need to make sure you have the time to also nurture those 50 relationships. Just making the connection with no plans to nurture that relationship really is not something that probably is worth your time.

Cause it's only going to make more stress in your life that now you have all these connections and you're not gonna have the ability to really enjoy them as you should.

[00:27:31] Kelly Cherwin: I feel like there's a common theme in our conversation today and this is going back to being authentic. So make those relationships with an authentic reason, knowing that you're gonna be able to follow up. And like you said, nurture and develop those over time.

[00:27:45] Andrew Hibel: I think on that relationship theme, we can talk about probably if not the most important relationship in your professional life, that's your relationship with your supervisor. And I think the article pointed out some good tips on that. The part that struck me was [00:28:00] really what it is, is nurturing that relationship with your supervisor.

And I can't tell you how many times I've heard folks come to me and say, God, my boss is just horrible at communicating. And every time I try to politely readjust the conversation saying if you're involved in a relationship, communication is a two-way street. Your boss might not initially initiate a lot of communication, but it's also incumbent upon you to also initiate communication.

And if you've identified a boss who doesn't initiate communication. It's probably more incumbent upon you to make sure that communication is initiated. And I think the follow up question I get to that is, well, I don't really like bothering my boss. They're really, really busy. How do I do that? And I think for me, it, it gets its persistence and patience.

Shouldn't be pushy, but making sure you make it be known that you'd like to communicate and doing so politely is the only way to go. And I, I will admit sometimes that doesn't work either. [00:29:00] But if you try, I think in most instances you're gonna be able to establish better communication with your supervisor.

[00:29:06] Kelly Cherwin: Andy I love all the thoughts that you just said there. And I know you, you know, I teach a class and we talk a lot in the class about communication and managing, managing up, managing across. And I often ask my students, is it okay to manage up? And they don't always know what I mean by that. And what I am referring to is getting to know the communication style of your manager.

Of course, I'm not going to tell my manager what to do or how to do it, but learning how they like to communicate, you know, it, do they like to set up a meeting in advance? Is it okay if I knock on someone's door? So that type of relationship, and I think you were alluding to that of recognizing how, how the best way to approach them.

Being able to approach them is, is so important. It is a two way street and yes, your manager will lead you, but you also have the ability to lead [00:30:00] in that relationship in a successful way. So the point that Justin was making about sending weekly updates, setting up weekly meetings, whatever might be, but the key point is staying in touch and keeping that communication open.

[00:30:14] Andrew Hibel: I think what today is also kind of interesting is you kind of have to account for. When do we do a phone call? When do we do a zoom? I, if it's not zoom, should I, we be on our Microsoft teams? Do they prefer that? What about in person? Should we have an in person conversation? What about texting? I mean, there's so many different ways to explore what's the best way and figuring out what works best for that relationship.

That important relationship is really in your best interest to help yourself grow in that position and grow as a professional.

[00:30:45] Kelly Cherwin: So last thing I wanna mention, and this is something I think it's great advice is getting yourself ready for the next week. Justin mentions on Friday. I tend to do it on Sunday, but I feel like we can be better equipped to manage our current situation and look ahead in [00:31:00] our career.

If we're organized and know what's on our plate for that Monday, but then for the entire week. And I actually struggled with this yesterday. I came into Monday morning feeling overwhelmed and I know I wasn't organized enough. So, um, like he says, send yourself a note about what you plan to work on that first thing on Monday.

And then I also love this when he said, leave yourself a note of encouragement from your good mood on Friday, or maybe it's a Sunday night, but I think that's what we really have to remember is be forgiving of ourselves and we have to lift ourselves up and then we can get through the week.

[00:31:32] Andrew Hibel: I think forgiveness, I, in this process. The daily part of this, once again is probably less important than the discipline part of this in that there was one thing that I thought that would be helpful is finding the inspiration on how to do this is, is sometimes challenging and finding outlets to make this happen is sometimes challenging.

The one thing I'd probably add to the piece would be, I think a lot of that inspiration can come from your involvement with the professional association. There's [00:32:00] hundreds of professional associations on both the faculty and the, the staff side of higher education. And I'm sure there's one that applies to your career and putting the time and energy into that association is probably the best return you're going to find on your investment of time in, in helping making your career more fulfilling and also giving you those opportunities to practice this discipline.

I'd really encourage folks to, to take a look at that professional association if they aren't involved with it. Uh, and if they are involved with. Look deeper into it. We'd love to hear what's part of your daily discipline. So please email us@podcastathigheredjobs.com or find us at Twitter at HigherEdJobs and let us know what we missed in this conversation.

And what's part of your daily discipline and a few weeks from now, if you start your daily discipline, reach out to us. We want to know how it's going. Thanks for listening.