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[00:00:00] Andrew Hibel: Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

[00:00:08] Kelly Cherwin: And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy. Today we are going to talk about the landscape of higher ed hiring from a military vet's perspective, and our guest today is Josh Allen, who is the Vice President for Human Resources at Governors State University.

Josh is an HR executive experienced in public and private sector organizations. As a retired United States Air Force veteran, Josh is highly adept at integrating the vision of an organization with the skillset of applicants. He has spent 20 years meeting, developing, and hiring the bravest and finest sons and daughters of our country “With the proven track record of achievements in military success, I find it invaluable that each resume is reviewed and interpreted with the utmost diligence to ensure candidates are hired upon their successes and not their writing skills.” Josh, thanks so much for being here today. Actually, you are in [00:01:00] person with us today in our studio, which is great I think, for being with us.

[00:01:02] Andrew Hibel: Thanks for being with us, it's nice to have somebody, have somebody here.

[00:01:05] Joshua Allen: Yeah, absolutely. I think we're all zoomed out, right?

[00:01:07] Kelly Cherwin: Yes, for sure. So let's start with a little background just from your institutional perspective. Can you give us kind of a general landscape of hiring and higher ed right now, and if it has changed over the past five years?

[00:01:18] Joshua Allen: Yeah, sure. So, when Covid hit, I think a lot of people initially went to a negative landscape perspective, right? I think we have an opportunistic landscape within higher education. The biggest piece that we face in higher ed right now is fighting the private sector with remote work. How do I hire somebody in California, allow them to work remote from Illinois?

We do have some, you know, challenges with higher ed because student success is our main focus and a lot of forward facing student jobs have to be in person. That being said, our benefits are uniquely undervalued [00:02:00] when we recruit applicants. How many times do you go and apply for a position and they say, hey, you get one week of vacation and you're starting off After 10 years, you get two weeks, right?

Higher ed, three weeks, four weeks, 12 paid holidays, and the stability of our profession is absolutely undervalued when we look at recruitment and retention, you cannot say enough about it. I saw many colleges, GSU, specifically before I came up here, we did not lay anybody off there during the pandemic.

When you look at big shifts in five years, that's the main one you have to look at. How did organizations respond to the pandemic? Having that pattern of a job that you can count on day in and day out. You have to recruit to. I can't say enough about it. We have seen a lot of turnover. I think every organization has.

You keep hearing about the great resignation. It's really how we respond to it. One thing I like to see with higher ed is they are [00:03:00] responding the right way. They're responding with flex time, remote work, summer hours, four days on, one day off. Worked a few more hours Monday through Thursday, and this does alleviate that Covid burnout because you know what?

Higher ed, they didn't stop. They got students back on campus that fall, whether it was remote or in person. So Covid burnout was real during that, and we're seeing now that Covid is kind of decreased. We're seeing a lot of employees saying, all right, what's important to my family? What's important to my friends?

What's important to my, my social life? And they're basing their job opportunities on that. So as higher ed develops with that flex time, remote work, summer hours, we can really put the human back in human resources. That's the important piece.

[00:03:45] Andrew Hibel: Thanks Josh. That's a wonderful introduction to our discussion.

Which jobs have you found to be the most difficult to fill, and why do you think that is?

[00:03:54] Joshua Allen: So right off the top of my head, I think IT positions and any position that you can do from the [00:04:00] comfort of your home, is the highest and hardest to fill. And the reason I say that is HR used to compete with a regional and local labor market.

We're competing with a national market now. We can do a job in California in New York, being from Illinois, we have to adapt to that in our workforce. And there are positions in higher ed we can adapt to with that. We just have to continue to focus on that. That's absolutely, you know, IT comes to the, the front of my mind when we think about that.

[00:04:32] Kelly Cherwin: So, Josh, I know you referenced a little bit about being flexible and, and remote work. Have you seen how jobs and careers have shifted in terms of remote work policies and what is working at your institution?

[00:04:44] Joshua Allen: Recently I've, I've seen a lot of articles on human resource websites about return to work, return to campus.

We saw a lot of that when Covid declined at our institution at GSU. We have kept our remote work policies in place. We have kept our flex time [00:05:00] scheduling in place, and that's important. I would say we are probably one of five organizations that I know of regionally that have done that. It's important because that's what our employees want.

When we even talked about scaling it back from fully remote to on campus, it's important we listened to our employees and we kept that. We allow our employees to work two days from home, and we do have some fully remote positions even in higher education. And it's important. It's helping recruiting, it's helping retention.

I can only give advice from my perspective, but in higher education, Covid, yes, it was terrible, but it also gave us opportunities that we have never seen before, and remote work and flex time were two of those.

[00:05:43] Kelly Cherwin: I agree with that. I'm gonna put you on the spot here. What would you say to your peer institutions that are kind of taking away or shying away from the remote work policies and making people come back to campus?

[00:05:54] Joshua Allen: So selfishly, I'd say absolutely keep doing that because it helps for my recruitment and retention. Um, but [00:06:00] as an HR colleague, I would say, you know, listen to your employees, listen to what they. There are positions that yes, we know need to be student focused, front facing positions, but there are ways around that too.

We can get creative and I would challenge any HR professional to get creative.

[00:06:18] Kelly Cherwin: So in terms of listening, this is kinda like a logistics question, listening to your employees, how do you guys do that? Are you sending out climate surveys? Are you doing town halls? I'm just curious.

[00:06:27] Joshua Allen: So I've been, I've been in my organization about a year now, we're about to roll out a culture and climate survey to see really what our, what our people want, as well as really just talking to 'em. You know, I've challenged my department to be a part of university events, putting a face to HR and just being out there because just like we all probably know, when you see somebody out in public or in an event, you're probably more apt to approach them and say, Hey, I got this problem.

Um, can I meet with you? Versus, you know, scheduling a Zoom meeting versus [00:07:00] calling them on the phone. It's important, especially after Covid, we're three years in now. Some employees have never seen face-to-face their HR benefits rep or their HR talent acquisition rep, so it is important to put a face back to HR and get those people out there to help out.

[00:07:18] Kelly Cherwin: We've talked about how jobs and policies shift, and hopefully this means pivoting in positive ways to make it a successful environment for both the employee side as well as the institution side, like you were saying. But I wanna ask your thoughts on a recent survey from CUPA-HR. They surveyed 3,800 people regarding the likelihood of employees looking for other unemployment in the next 12 months.

This is from July of 2022, and the results showed 57% of the respondents said they were somewhat likely, likely, or very likely to look for a new opportunity. So what do you think of these numbers and what are higher ed institutions doing wrong?

[00:07:53] Joshua Allen: I wouldn't say we're doing anything wrong. I think we're slowly adapting to post covid reality.

Where [00:08:00] employees and candidates are really focusing on what's important to them. You know, historically, higher ed has been a very secure position with many pension or retirement plans in place that was well sought after with really outstanding benefits. Our employees now are focused on themselves and their families.

One thing I've seen is many families, much like mine, have went from a dual income household to a household with maybe one person working or one person working full-time and one person working part-time. That shifted tremendously with higher ed, what I would say is we need to focus on the people. We need to focus on the physical and mental wellbeing of our employees.

We've seen our staff burn out because, you know, many worked on campus during Covid while many shifted fully remote, many are still fully remote. I've seen a lot of articles on companies that don't have any employees in buildings they're still paying for. [00:09:00] I would challenge a lot of higher ed institutions, not to quote unquote return to campus.

We have to focus on what matters to our employee. One of the things post Covid that we've done, we've recently started having in-person events again, you know, celebratory milestones for employees. This past Friday, our, our civil service or our staff employees held a civil service day, and it was well attended.

I saw many administrators, VP levels shut down their areas for three hours and absolutely send everybody to attend that support our staff employees. And that's what it's about. That physical and mental wellbeing that you matter. We got you. And again, putting that human back in human resources.

[00:09:45] Andrew Hibel: Thanks, Josh, that's very insightful reflection on the challenges of trying to navigate recruiting today. However, there's times where when you look at the value of higher education in society, which [00:10:00] continues to be not only a topic within institutions and within academia, but even larger, considering what the Biden administration has done with possible loan forgiveness and the desire that the American public needs for a more affordable experience, and a lot of people are seeing that extra value being placed, that if I am going to pay both financially and with my time to attend college, that in-person experience of learning how in my younger years to acquire knowledge, become better at what I do and become part of an academic community in a physical way.

Is a big part of what I feel like I'm paying for with a workforce that's wanting to be more and more remote, but students who may want more of a high touch in person experience, how do you reconcile those two worlds today?

[00:10:53] Joshua Allen: Well, I think our mission is student success. First and foremost, it's about the students, and then we [00:11:00] find ways to adapt based on that.

We do have a lot of hybrid options out there for many faculty that want to teach online or in person. At GSU we have some high flex classrooms, which allows students to attend in person as. as online. At the same time. I recently sat through a class at GSU, a training event that I got to experience a high flex classroom.

I had a teacher in person, you know, I was able to communicate with that person, communicate with the people online, and then our students would have that ability to log in through Zoom, blackboard, WebEx, whatever the modality is, and also attend how they feel comfortable. So I think we have some great opportunities from a staffing perspective as well as a student success perspective to really do some things that have never been heard of in higher education, really excited about that.

[00:11:55] Andrew Hibel: Pivoting a little bit to some of the more tactical parts of higher ed hiring. [00:12:00] How much does social media play in the job search process, and how are hiring communities looking at social media profiles?

[00:12:06] Joshua Allen: I think social media plays an enormous part of hiring and recruiting our employees.

And the reason I say that is when I transitioned out of the Air Force and came to the civilian world, my LinkedIn profile, you guys would be ashamed of it, right? I didn't have a profile picture, I didn't have a bio, anything. When I was transitioning out, they taught me a little bit about it. The civilian world taught me a lot more about what my LinkedIn profile should look like.

I view my LinkedIn profile as a digital resume. My Facebook, my Instagram, whatever their social media platforms someone might have, I lock those down. Mainly that's the privacy of me and my family. You know, I don't expect an employer to go out there searching my social media profile and, and when I hire people, I don't, I don't go look at their Facebook profile, but I do take a look at their LinkedIn.

I think before we meet with somebody, it's important to [00:13:00] see if what they put on their resume matches their LinkedIn. I'm an attention to detail kind of person, so I like to see does that mirror your level of dedication to your profession? But I would say for employers, just Josh's 2 cents right here.

Don't go out searching people's social media profile, base it on their resume. Base it on their credentials. If you have to check out their LinkedIn, absolutely cause you wanna see what somebody looks like. You wanna see kind of what their bio's about before you meet them. I think that's very important because it can generate good conversation during an interview process.

[00:13:33] Kelly Cherwin: Have there been any, I don't know if the term red flags, but you know, say you're, you're looking at the, the resume, their CV and then you go and search their LinkedIn profile that you've seen that you're, you would suggest that candidates…just don't do that.

[00:13:47] Joshua Allen: Well, I think in, in our climate today, it's really what do you want out of your job search?

You know, if you're, if you're looking for, let's say an HR profession, maybe we don't say bad things about a certain company, [00:14:00] right? Because you know, when you're out there and you wouldn't say it in person, don't say it on social media, even though you think you're protected on social media. Don't vent, would be my only recommendation because I see a lot of really great employees have a bad experience at a company, and that doesn't mean the company's bad. It doesn't mean the employee's bad, but in the heat of the moment, they say something and, and it's out there forever, somebody will find it, you know, vent to your wall or your pillow or, or you know, yell into something else.

[00:14:31] Andrew Hibel: And, and if you need the example that the internet never forgets, you can be reminded of that on a daily basis. The internet not only never forgets, but the internet loves to never forget. So yeah, your dirty laundry should never be aired in any place that's permanent. Yeah. Cause people will find out.

[00:14:50] Joshua Allen: Yeah. Yeah. I got some really great HR head hunters that, uh, will, will find it.

[00:14:55] Andrew Hibel: If you, if you wanna see how bad my 10k times were back in the nineties, [00:15:00] they're no better today.

They're a lot worse today. In fact, uh, I believe the internet hasn't forgotten that, so, no.

[00:15:06] Joshua Allen: Absolutely right.

[00:15:07] Andrew Hibel: And by the way, just for, for those of you listening, we invite you to send comments and thoughts and reflections to us. But if you see on the internet what my 10k times were in the nineties, feel free to email those to us too at podcast@higheredjobs.com.

Or you know what? Embarrass me, tweet them at HigherEdJobs. We'd love to have me remind myself that the internet never forgets.

[00:15:30] Joshua Allen: Another reason I never posted my, well, I don't know if I've ever ran a 10 K. So good for you on that…

[00:15:36] Andrew Hibel: I think the part, it was a different, the nineties were different that they just did it.

The races would just post the results of everybody who ran it and it's like, it felt more like law school to me. It was public shaming. It's like I didn’t agree to the fact of my 10k time would be posted. That is, that is the official reason why I gave up running.

[00:15:56] Joshua Allen: 10ks were a lot shorter back then, I think.

[00:15:57] Andrew Hibel: Yeah, exactly. [00:16:00]

[00:16:00] Kelly Cherwin: So let's switch over to the military perspective. As it says in the title, we're gonna get your perspective you, like we said, our United States Air Force veteran. So how can we in higher ed, encourage more veterans to work in this profession and dispel the misconception that higher ed is just for instructors or professors?

[00:16:18] Joshua Allen: So, I'll tie a lot of that back into the previous question about social media. You know, when we focus on social media, we're focused on recruiting, we're focusing on, you know, what, what does an employee have? What does an employer have? But it really comes down to marketing, to vets. And it's not just about what we can offer you.

It's about what have we done for you. So when I was on social media prior to retiring and coming into the civilian sector, I looked at organizations and what they did for our veterans. Recently we hosted our Veterans Day programming, which our Veterans Resource Center does an amazing job at. We also hosted the salute, National Honor Society Dinner for everybody, our [00:17:00] students, student veterans that were inducted into that and that, that's one of the big pieces, is really what are we doing for the vets versus what we can do for you.

The second piece is really get involved with your local veterans organizations, because if you don't know how to tap into those veterans that are separating from the military, retiring from the military, or even just looking for a job, then we're not gonna have any return on investment with that. So I would say coming back is really just continue to show that dedication.

You know, we can speak it all day long, but it's really the what have you done for me lately? mentality. Yeah. And showcase it. Showcase it on social. Showcase, hey, we hired 10 vets. Here's their leadership profiles. I recently had the opportunity to hire a, a friend of mine as well as a colleague, as well as a very decorated, successful retired chief master sergeant from the Air Force.

While his [00:18:00] career profile was in emergency management in the Air Force, he did so much human resources stuff that he didn't know how to translate that from an emergency management background to an HR background, so we recently hired him as our director of employee relations and he's hit the ground running, has had great feedback and he loves it.

But I know personally being a vet, what he brings to the table. So, hire vets into leadership positions and they can in turn get you vets.

[00:18:30] Andrew Hibel: And I feel like I'd be remiss here because we here at HigherEdJobs have a very large commitment to the military connected and veteran communities and higher education.

And we on behalf of employers, who are looking for vets, military connected folks. We actually have a whole other website called HigherEdMilitary, www higher ed military.com, where if you're a vet looking for a job, you can see a good number of institutions who, I think, as you described, Josh, are putting that [00:19:00] best foot forward now in saying they wanna hire vets.

Those are, to us, those are institutions that are taking their commitment seriously and also I'd say understanding the true value of having vets on your team. It is a good hire when you look in many instances, the skills that somebody has brought from the military to many teams within higher education.

[00:19:23] Joshua Allen: Absolutely. You know, I love to hear that you guys had that website and I was so thrilled when I heard about your team here that you can't say enough about what a veteran gave to this country. Whether it's your initial four years, six years, 20 years, a lot of students go to college or vets went to serve their country and now are now looking to go to college and work. So within higher ed, that's the best of both worlds cause many of our organizations have free schooling, reduced schooling, and you get a dedicated professional ready to join your team.

[00:19:58] Andrew Hibel: And from what we understand, [00:20:00] and we listen to a lot of real smart folks in this field, the main reason people go into the military is to pay for college.

So, you have them on your campus right after separation, they are coming to you. You have the first shot. I would encourage if, if you're within the hiring part of higher education, if you are not thinking actively about recruiting veterans, take a look at it. I think that you'd find it to be something that's well worth your institution’s while. In that spirit, Josh, how can we encourage veterans to apply for jobs, even if they don't have the preferred degree level, but have all the skills? Will they get past applicant tracking systems if they do apply and don't meet the degree requirement?

[00:20:43] Joshua Allen: So this is one of my big challenges when I transitioned the old applicant tracking system, I would say it comes down to the hiring manager.

This doesn't only apply to veterans. This applies to every candidate that has workforce experience in their field. The must haves, [00:21:00] the minimum acceptable qualifications as we like to call it. I always like looking at the and/or model, right? You either have four years of education or two years of education and three years of experience.

When it comes to veterans, do not set yourself up for failure when you say, I want this applicant to have a master's degree, I want them to have a bachelor's degree or even specific, I want them to have a bachelor's degree in finance, for example, there are certain jobs that we know need to have a specific qualification.

You probably don't want me dispersing pharmaceutical medication, but if you have an MBA, if you have a master's degree in business, organizational leadership, if you have a master's or a bachelor's with five years of leading people, I want to take a look at you. I want you to come to the team. Most of our veterans, when they come out, at least have an associate's degree, whether they do four years, six years, or 20 years.

This is the most educated fighting [00:22:00] force I have ever seen and in my 20 years in the Air Force, the military, and I'm not just saying Air Force, I'm talking Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard, Space Force, Army. They continue to push education, whether it's through professional development or higher education. Do not count out that service member don't count out what they want to do for your organization.

Higher ed is mission focused to use the military lingo there and if there's a mission associated with it, that vet's gonna get it done for you.

[00:22:30] Kelly Cherwin: Going back to what you just said about education, I kind of feel like both the employer and the job seeker need to be educated on one, that the, the employer needs to be a little bit more open to creating a job description that, like you said, doesn't have to have, must have this, this, and this.

And then the job seeker should know that they should apply even though they might not have that specific skill, but they know they have transferrable skills from their previous role. So I might be answering my own question here, but you know, we talked earlier about how [00:23:00] institutions need to make sure they provide examples on the site for job seekers to know that that's, you know, institution that really is caring, and not just saying we're military friendly.

So, say that Governors State recruits some fantastic veterans in to work at your institution. How do you keep them, how do you retain them?

[00:23:17] Joshua Allen: And I don't think that's just veterans. How do you retain any employee during the great resignation? Usually when you have a veteran sign up for your organization, they're in it for the long haul, minus any random things that happen that make them want to leave.

The biggest way I've seen to recruit, retain, and keep our vets is really offer them that mission, understand the why of a mission, and it's here's our strategic plan. This is what we're doing. No matter what level you're at in the organization. If they know the why, why they come to work every day, they're gonna understand it and they're gonna execute it.

I would say that's the biggest piece, but that doesn't just go for veterans. That's every employee we have. Let them understand the why the [00:24:00] institution

[00:24:00] Kelly Cherwin: The institution being genuine in that. That's great. Thank you for that. Looking for more conversations in higher ed, we invite you to join the HigherEdMilitary community as we discuss issues, best practices from campuses, policies, news and general trends affecting our institutions and the higher ed military affiliated community.

Inspired by the deep commitment to service that veterans and military connected faculty, staff, and leaders have towards the academic community, we at HigherEdJobs established higher ed military as a resource for both original and curated news and information, as well as job opportunities from colleges and universities actively recruiting military connected professionals.

Find resources, thought pieces, tools, and other information you need to improve your institution's ability to support this amazing community. Visit us at higheredmilitary.com on Facebook and LinkedIn.

[00:24:46] Joshua Allen: From the veteran perspective, I think this is what's important. Having a veteran on your podcast means the world to me.

We have a lot of veterans that are just now starting their career but having [00:25:00] veterans that someone can reach out to and say, hey, Josh, I've got this problem. Or, Hey, I saw HigherEdJobs, had a veteran on their podcast. That's, that's the important piece that goes worlds above what I can do for vets. You know, just, just pushing that out there. So thank you.

[00:25:17] Andrew Hibel: With HigherEdMilitary, what we're really trying to do is give an avenue to. The discussions on these topics and kind of highlight within HigherEdJobs, the stuff employers want us to do because those employers who wanna recruit veterans really do want to recruit veterans. And it's challenging because even though you may have a bunch of people who are interested, there is no one place where you're gonna find them.

You can go to SVA and try to recruit veterans from SVA, but you're going to such a large population, you're competing against all other industries. Like, you kind of want to take your home field advantage and see what you can do with it, so.

[00:25:56] Joshua Allen: Well, yeah, I had no clue I could go work in higher education when I retired. [00:26:00]

No clue. I, I ended up going private sector and then I got recruited into higher ed saying, oh, hey, you know, just come to HR, right? Not higher ed. Just come to HR and then, with me being in hr, it helps, you know, I know where to go to hire vets. A lot of our leadership across the state doesn't, you just can't go to an Air Force base and say, Hey, come work for me. Right.

[00:26:19] Kelly Cherwin: When we talked a few months ago, I could tell your passion to have those separating from the military consider higher ed, and it's kind of your mission, I feel like, now, to get more of your fellow military connected people into higher ed.

[00:26:32] Joshua Allen: Yeah, it, it is. And it's not just military, it's people. That don't have the necessary education but have those skill sets.

I love that question that was asked. They might only have a bachelors or an associates, but what happens if they have six years of experience? That's important, that shows dedication to a workforce, that shows dedication to a career. I can teach operational stuff. I can't teach dedication. I can't teach enthusiasm.

[00:27:00] And if I have somebody showing up for work every day wanting to be there, wanting to lead people, yeah, I'm good with your associate's degree. I'm good with your education. There's something to be said about teaching organizational values versus, again, we're not gonna let you disperse pharmaceuticals, but we'll let you lead people.

[00:27:17] Andrew Hibel: If really what you are is committed to diversity, look at the real value of diversity. The real value of diversity is to get everybody's different perspective on the world out there to disagree without being disagreeable, and then being able to, once a decision's been reached and all the information's placed on the table, execute that decision as a team, no matter whether your opinion is the one that won or did not win. And veterans are uniquely qua veteran academia, could learn a lot from veterans about how to move forward after that sort of decision making process.

[00:27:51] Joshua Allen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Just not how to talk to each other in a professional environment. Um, but, but yeah. You know, we, we talked about [00:28:00] the value of remote that gives us the option to recruit veterans, people with disabilities.

You know, my daughter, she was born with Down Syndrome and one of the things I loved about Covid was she's probably gonna have the opportunity one day to work remote, do her job. Like I know she can, but people don't put that stigma just seeing her initially and you know, good, bad, or indifferent. That's one of the I think the positives about remote work, we can hire people with disabilities that are afraid to come into that workforce and say they're gonna judge me. They're gonna think I'm a veteran. They're gonna think because I have this disability, I can't do my job. So, you know, I think about that every day with my daughter.

[00:28:40] Andrew Hibel: That's really cool. Thank you for sharing. Josh. Thank you so much for your time. It's been incredibly informative and wonderfully educational to share with us everything you did about the status of hiring in higher ed from that unique veteran perspective. Thanks for coming into the studio and spending [00:29:00] some time with us.

[00:29:00] Joshua Allen: Absolutely. Thank you for the invite. It was really nice being in person today. I can't say enough about that. We talked about remote work, but there's something to be said about seeing a smiling face. Yes. Right across from you.

[00:29:10] Kelly Cherwin: I agree. Well, thank you again for, for being here. We, we enjoyed the conversation.

[00:29:15] Andrew Hibel: And for anyone who's listening, if you have any questions for us or any feedback to this episode, please feel free to email us at podcast@HigherEdJobs.com or tweet us HigherEdJobs.

And once again, thank you for listening.

[00:29:39] Andrew Hibel: Okay. Okay, Mike, we're back on, uh, uh, well, good thing I didn't stop recording . Yeah. He never stops recording. It's a dirty little secret.

[00:29:50] Joshua Allen: That's a whole internet never goes away thing. Mike always will have this.

[00:29:55] Kelly Cherwin: He's, he's making a blooper reel for us.

[00:29:59] Andrew Hibel: [00:30:00] Yeah. I'm always. Washing Mike's cars and doing other chores because of that.