Andrew Hibel: [00:00:00] Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the Chief operating Officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly Cherwin: And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the Director of Editorial Strategy. Today we're talking with Dr. David Blake, who refers to himself as an HR geek, recovering academic, former CHRO and COO.

Kelly Cherwin: His company Building Forward Now Inc. started in 2018 with the vision to inspire change and purpose in everyone so they can make a difference in the lives of others. Welcome David. And I must say I love that mission.

David Blake: Great. I appreciate it. Yeah, I probably struggled over it, had multiple renditions -- I think most people do. So thank you for that. I'm glad to be with both of you this morning.

Andrew Hibel: Great to have you here.

Kelly Cherwin: So we're covering an interesting topic today with David regarding the job seeker over the age of 40. So it isn't probably a big surprise to our listeners, if you Google "job search over 40," you'll find it comes back with a, a variety of questions like, is 43 too old to start a new career?

Kelly Cherwin: Or how to [00:01:00] get hired when you're older. Do companies hire 50 year olds? And the list obviously goes on and on. So David, Andy, let's dive in and discuss the realities and the challenges, and I'd like to say opportunities, on how higher ed job seekers over the age of 40 can be successful in their job search.

Kelly Cherwin: I'm having a issue here with like the age over 40. It just sounds like we're making someone sound so old, I don't know.

Andrew Hibel: What's it like to be over 40, Kelly?

Kelly: Yes.

David Blake: I won't even try to hide that one.

Kelly Cherwin: So, David, why does it seem that around age 40 many professionals start doubting their confidence and career mobility?

David Blake: You know, I think it's a combination of factors, you know, both personal and professional. You know, if you think about age 40, you know, you've been in your career coming on 20 years. Now, let's say you graduated college at 22. You've been into your career.. In many cases, we know people who back get their masters, and [00:02:00] many times they're doing that as working adults.

David Blake: Maybe they're married, they have kids now, there's families growing, they have all these different things now. Life has become more complicated than it was when we were 19. One other factor that I think sometimes has gotten overlooked over the last couple of years is the impact of the pandemic made a lot of people really rethink.What they wanted to do.

David Blake: And, you know, people suffered loss, financial, emotional, physical. They lost businesses, they might have lost other sources of income. And I think people just really began to say, is this really what I want to do? And I also think at age 40, you kind of get to that point, where do I pursue a path of growth?

David Blake: Do I want to get to the next level? Do I want to be the CHRO? Those jobs begin to pop open. So you start applying naturally to those things. But you know, to be honest, we get less jobs. We were hired for less jobs than we apply for. So sometimes we're [00:03:00] sort of really putting ourselves out there in the field.

David Blake: There is an element of rejection that comes with that, you know, and I always tell people if you got the interview, you know you're qualified, but sometimes you don't close the deal. But I do think a lot of times at age 40, we're beginning to put ourselves just naturally more on the market, cuz we want to get to the next point.

David Blake: Families growing kids are going, gonna go to college someday. We have to start thinking down those roads. So I do think 40 is... why not the magical point? Definitely not by any means old age, but think about it though. You've been in the workforce for about 20 years now. I just think it is a natural byproduct of the thought process that we go through as we advance in our career.

Andrew Hibel: Thanks, David. That's a great, great place to start this conversation, and I think it actually ties in thematically that if you've listened to a number of these episodes, we talk about the mental side of job search. Now you've decided to go into the job search. You want to do something. Obviously at 40, there's more at stake.

Andrew Hibel: You've mentioned the family, the financial pressures, maybe the career aspirations, [00:04:00] maybe doing an accounting of what those checkoff against what your expectations were when you entered the field. But then again, you have all that there and it's sitting there, and then you gotta get into the nuts and bolts of a job search.

Andrew Hibel: And keeping yourself applying for jobs and prepared mentally and emotionally for interviews is really hard. And one of the things we try to do on the podcast is really dispel some of those myths. Let's get it out of your head what the myths are. So with that, what are some general concerns job seekers over 40 express? And can you separate some into the actual concerns of what they should be worried about versus these myths that kind of drag on your search?

David Blake: Let me start with, I think some of the myths. First of all, I'm too old, right? You know, I hear that from a lot of people. You know, who's gonna hire me? I used to joke that I'm living proof that it works. There is a discussion in our society today just about age.

David Blake: You know, at what age is too old to do something? And one of the [00:05:00] things that age brings with it, you can't get any other way, is wisdom. And I think sometimes you forget that that's also an extremely important trait to be able to exemplify in that. So I think age is part of it too. Another thing, uh, people say, well, my experience, I haven't been constantly on the growth pattern.

David Blake: I've kind of taken lateral jobs too in some cases, and the myth to that is you don't always have to be going up. Development is also this way, you know, it's also sideways. It's also left and right. You can go from the director of benefits to the director of compensation, and those are two totally different jobs.

David Blake: It's not a growth move necessarily, it's a lateral move, but it's still really important. When you go into the interviews, I think just mentally being prepared, it takes courage to put yourself out there and you know, people say, oh, really courage. And, you know, like the Cowardly Lion. I mean, no, it really does take -- you're putting yourself out there.

David Blake: You're allowing yourself to be vulnerable. You're allowing people to ask you really tough [00:06:00] questions and judge you sometimes based upon a one hour and in many cases, Zoom interviews, you know, we don't even get to go in in person and sort of be that three-dimensional person. I think what I try to tell candidates when they are getting prepared or even my kids as they prepared to interview for jobs and they'd always say, dad, what do we do?

David Blake: And I'd say, first of all, be confident. Don't be fluffy, but be confident. You got the interview. That means you're qualified. There might have been 200 other people that applied for that job, and there's only three of 'em they're interested in. So in essence, that should be a confidence builder. You know, that's kind of the lottery if you think of your odds.

David Blake: And so you've prepared and you've done all the things you need to do. At some point too, I think you also have to recognize once you get in there, you can't control the environment, right? You're sort of on the rollercoaster. We're gonna go ahead and we're gonna talk. We're gonna go ahead and figure out how to do things.

David Blake: We're gonna respond to questions. I think you also have to make sure that as [00:07:00] you prepare for the job that you have looked at, and really understood not only the company, the school, wherever it is you're gonna go, but also the mission and be able to articulate clearly that what you have done makes you perfect candidate for that.

David Blake: I'm always surprised if I ask somebody a question like, what do you know about us? That a lot of times I get a blank stare and what it tells me is, you haven't done your research, you haven't really prepared for what it is we're about ready to talk about here, or little things like -- my favorite is the cover letter that has the wrong school or business in it.

David Blake: You know, I could tell these things just came hot off the press. So there's little things like that. I just don't see that anymore. I think age is a mental state of mind. I mean, there's certain things you can't hire. You could tell that I have gray hair, so I probably a little older on the spectrum, but I think what you do is you play it to a strength.

David Blake: I'm not gonna come out and say, Hey, I'm X years old, but I'm gonna talk about why my [00:08:00] life experience is relevant to what it is we're going to do. And conversely, when you get into the interview, use that as a strength, be able to talk to why those experiences you've had in life -- while maybe not always going up the ladder, but laterally across -- those experiences are extremely valuable, and you only get that by being around a little longer than somebody else.

Andrew Hibel: I'm really glad you brought up the cover letter. First of all, it's a pleasure that -- I'm assuming if you're listening to this you're either 40 or over or approaching 40, or maybe you're just one of these people who like to prepare years in advance of turning 40, but for whatever reason you're listening.

Andrew Hibel: If you're 40 or over, you actually know what a cover letter is, first of all. I don't think we can presume that ubiquitously now with people applying for jobs. Some people don't even use cover letters, and I actually think that that's a great example of a red herring for somebody who maybe has not been a job search in 5, 10, 15 years, should I or should I not do a cover letter?

Andrew Hibel: For somebody who is over 40, what do you [00:09:00] suggest? Do you have to do a cover letter? Can you try to do a little bit more of what you might have done in a cover letter in your resume or your cv, or what would your advice be to somebody over 40?

David Blake: You know, I think what I found is it's really all over the map, you know, and I've seen some jobs -- I'll give you an example. The school I was recently at, if you didn't have a cover letter, they just didn't even bother to look at you, you know? And I always thought to myself, you know, we're probably missing a lot of really great candidates here that maybe the resume is really the ultimate determiner. To some degree, who wants what?

David Blake: And a lot of times in the cover letter, they ask you to address a series of questions, right? They want to know something about you. And I think to some degree, they're checking out your writing skill and ability too. So don't take that cover letter lightly. Make sure you put it through a series of reviews and checks by others, because ultimately there's a reason they've asked.

David Blake: I'm more of a resume guy. I mean, I'll be always honest with you. I think the resume, you know, it is what it is. It speaks to the person's experience. The cover letter allows you to expand on [00:10:00] why that experience simply is relevant to the job you're applying in. But I'd say today it's kind of half and half.

David Blake: I mean, some, it's really, you know, without the cover letter, we don't want to talk to you and others -- now, in some cases I've seen too, they don't want cover letters. They want a diversity statement, and I've seen that too. Tell us about your commitment to diversity. Or tell us just about, uh, they might just give you a topic to write about because they're curious what your thought processes are like.

David Blake: But again, they're also because we're such a written society that they do want to check out how you write, how you communicate in another form or a different modality from just verbal. So I think it's kind of, you know, I think it's kind of half and half out there. It just kind of depends on what the employer wants.

David Blake: They'll dictate it. Half the places, like I said, if you don't submit it, they won't look at you. And I'm not sure that's the right answer either. I do like, uh, like a lot of colleges nowadays, ask people to write a letter. Why me? You know, why should you select me? And I think the cover letter is evolving.

David Blake: I really do. I don't think it's a one size fits all anymore, so that's why I never [00:11:00] encourage people just to use -- here's the one I dusted off from last week and resend it over to you.

Kelly Cherwin: Thanks, David. And actually what you just said there, the why me, that kind of leads into a question I had. You were talking a little bit about interviewing and being prepared.

Kelly Cherwin: Obviously the candidates should do their research. So I read an article recently that the author was making a statement in regards to how job seekers can actually hurt themselves by being overly confident and explaining every detail of their entire life and feeling like they have to just tell everything.

Kelly Cherwin: So the author said "many over 40 workers think marketing themselves as a Jack or Jill of all trades is the best way to get hired." And she said in her experience, it isn't. So do you have any thoughts on this? Why a candidate shouldn't explain every detail of their entire career.

David Blake: I think first of all, you're gonna put the committee to sleep.

David Blake: You know, I used to say, you know, it's sometimes better when you're doing less talking and interviewing and let the committee run, but of course then, you know, you're not getting to tell your story. I think it's a fine [00:12:00] balance between, you know, hitting the high points and making sure once you hit the high points, say it, sit down and be done, right?

David Blake: So trying to cover everything you know, first of all, it's an impossibility and if you try to do that, because it's like I gotta tell 'em everything. I think most committees realize there's probably a lot we missed here because it's only been an hour. And if you're lucky in that hour, maybe you spoke 20 minutes, you want to give them enough that they're hungry to ask follow ups.

David Blake: Well, tell me a little bit more about that. They wanna know more. They're gonna ask you more, trust me. Or they'll simply bring you back for another interview, which is also a mark of success for the morning, right? So definitely you don't wanna ramble. That's the key. I've been in some interviews, I'm sure we all have, where we just couldn't wait for the candidate to please stop.

David Blake: It's like, you know, it's almost painful because, you know, they're not helping themselves and there's nothing you can do about that. So I think the rule would be -- be short, be simple, be succinct, and then be quiet. And I think that would be the advice I give [00:13:00] everybody. And when I see people do that, they do it really well.

Andrew Hibel: I think it's one honest request of people who are sitting on the other side of the table, because we're gearing this towards the job seeker. But in many instances in academia, we are thrown to be on the other side of the table. And we -- all of us chuckled when you said, "oh, we just want the candidate to be quiet."

Andrew Hibel: There are points where candidates need to find their sea legs. There's a lot of anxiety. There's a lot of pressure they're putting on themselves. And I really believe in that moment -- now, somebody who's been at it for 45 minutes or an hour, that's kind of the way they are. Let's set that aside. But when somebody initially kind of stumbles into the interview and you're like, okay, where's this going?

Andrew Hibel: I say, those people who are conducting the interview, just tap into some of your own humanity and reverse chairs with that candidate at that point, and really try to make this person feel at ease because it's not just about them proving themselves, it's about you as an institution proving [00:14:00] yourself and you as a potential colleage, proving yourself.

Andrew Hibel: This might be someplace that people wanna work for and work with. And being able to have that opportunity to do that with a candidate, I actually think goes really well for that slightly nervous candidate who just isn't tapping into the interview. And if you can do that, A) I think that's just being decent, but B) I think it also shows the work environment to be a good work environment. To me, as a candidate, I like seeing things like that in an interview that says, oh, you know, these people are kind of just good, decent people that's gonna, that's gonna bode well as you go down the line. And that kind of goes into where we wanted to go next -- more on the emotional side.

Andrew Hibel: And one of those things that we hear frequently from older candidates, you're overqualified. And sometimes to some candidates, that feels a little bit repetitive, like, well, I'm too qualified for a lot of the positions. Or for the next [00:15:00] step up, maybe it's the other one -- I'm not qualified enough.

Andrew Hibel: I'm kind of a tweener. What's your advice to a candidate over 40 who is either overqualified or underqualified and seems to be stuck in between qualifications?

David Blake: So let's take the overqualified. I think that's a misnomer. I think it's probably the worst misnomer that I hear. You think you're overqualified.

David Blake: First of all, that's your judgment. Let the committee be the decider. Here's how I kind of look at, it's from my own experience too. So when I came back, the job I took here in California was a small independent law school here in San Diego. I had been the chief HR officer for, you know, a Division one University, a large community college district, a private Catholic university.

David Blake: I had had really big jobs. And I enjoyed every single one of them. I was working up in Seattle when the dean of the law school called me and wanted to offer me the job. The first thing he said was, but you know, I'm worried about one thing. And I said, what's that? He says, with all your experience, aren't you gonna be bored as heck?

David Blake: Here we have, you know, [00:16:00] 700 students and 167 employees, you gonna be okay with that? And I kind of chuckled and I said, "that's the attractive part." I think all of us at some point get to the point where we don't need the biggest job in the universe anymore. And what I was looking for at that point in my life was greater balance.

David Blake: I had done the 14 hour days, and I was tired of that. And I wanted a job where I, well first of all, I loved the mission, which I loved the mission of this law school, but at the same time, I wanted to go home at night and see my grandkids and my kids. And so I think, you know, you kind of get to that point where people say, well, you are overqualified.

David Blake: Well, yeah, I guess -- if there is such a thing. I look at it this way, I'm gonna bring you something that's unique and special and I've made a personal decision that it fits well with me in my life. But be prepared for that because I think that's a great question to ask. Are you gonna be bored here?

David Blake: And I was working at the time, so, you know, it wasn't like I was unemployed and I needed to find a job. On the other side is sometimes if you think you're underqualified, but I would say you don't need to be the [00:17:00] judge of that. Let the committee be the judge that they're gonna determine whether or not you're qualified or not qualified for the job.

David Blake: I think there's always that element of the imposter syndrome. Am I really who I think I am? Do people have me figured out? Trust me, nobody has you figured out yet. You're an independent entity, you're a self-made person. You obviously got here because you're qualified. What makes you think all of a sudden now you're underqualified?

David Blake: And so yes, it's a natural question to ask yourself, but then answer it. Why do you think you are qualified? Because that's gonna come up, you know, I mean, I've asked that question in interviews before. Why do you think you're qualified for the job? I mean, be prepared for it. Again, overqualified, I don't agree with that.

David Blake: I think a lot of people today are making decisions not to necessarily continue to be in the meat grinder, and I think that's an okay thing. On the other hand, when we think we're underqualified, let the committee decide that, but be prepared to address it if you think you are.

Andrew Hibel: Maybe a great myth to just address here -- how many committees have you been on where there's one or more of what the committee is [00:18:00] looking for as the ideal candidate? You were looking for a left-handed reliever for six to seven years of experience, who's played in World Series and went to a West coast college, and that candidate that you're looking for -- you've got multiples of. Does the ideal candidate really exist in reality in most committee's minds?

David Blake: No, not today. I mean, there is no such thing as the unicorn. I read a statistic essay that for every job there's 0.06 applicants for that job. How many of us today are posting jobs and getting five applicants, where five years ago we would've got 200 applicants? So there is no such thing as the unicorn candidate. What I tell committees is look at the potential of the individual. What is the potential of this individual? And that's a tough one to get to because a lot of times we don't even know what our potential is, right?

David Blake: I love to hire somebody who's hungry for a job. This is their next step. And a lot of times if you're at a smaller school, that's who you are. attracting -- people who wanna make the next step. And this is an opportunity. So I tell committees, look for the potential. The resume doesn't tell us [00:19:00] everything. The interview doesn't tell everything.

David Blake: A lot of times we'll sit there and say, I got a feeling. I'm not arguing that's a bad thing. You're humans, you're gonna rate it that way. But, uh, definitely take time to get to know the candidate, but don't underestimate your own skills and ability.

Kelly Cherwin: David, I just wanted to circle back to you said committees don't have the candidates figured out and I will say, if someone has me figured out, please let me know because I don't have myself figured out.

Kelly Cherwin: So we talked a lot about the emotional side of the job search, and maybe this could actually fit into the myth question, but you referenced the imposter syndrome. So how can a job seeker who is more mature -- and again, maybe this is the mental --set him or herself apart from maybe a newer or younger job seeker entering the market?

David Blake: Yeah, I think it's definitely through talking about experiences, right? I don't wanna say get into, you know, and we all have 'em, war stories, right? "Let me tell you about a time..." I think that's just kind of natural. We [00:20:00] do that sometimes, but what I suggest is always playing to that.

David Blake: If there are, you know, let me tell you about a time when, and you know, kind of be able to articulate that, that's good. I think that's, again, one of the things that goes with longevity on the planet is we have more of those experiences that are relevant to the job. So I think you play to that.

David Blake: Additionally, if you're on the other side of it, where maybe you haven't had those, you know, war stories. I think it's important to say, if I had this experience, this is how I would address it, right? So to be able to sort of answer it both ways. But the longer you are in the job, the longer you are in terms of tenure in your profession, the more easy it is to talk to those things because you've had 'em.

David Blake: So highlight 'em. Those stories are good for a reason, right?

Kelly Cherwin: Looking for more conversations in higher ed? We invite you to join the HigherEdMilitary community as we discuss issues, best practices, news, and general trends affecting our institutions and the higher ed military affiliated community. Inspired by the deep commitment to service [00:21:00] that veterans and military connected faculty, staff, and leaders have towards the academic community, we at HigherEdJobs established HigherEdMilitary as a resource for both original and curated news and information, as well as job opportunities from colleges and universities actively recruiting military-connected professionals. Visit us at HigherEdMilitary.com and on Facebook and LinkedIn.

Andrew Hibel: Shifting gears a little bit here, I think this is a very common question that we see, and I think it's something that presses on more experienced job seekers of all varieties. How should a mature candidate negotiate salary expectations, knowing that they have significant years of experience compared to younger or less experienced professionals?

David Blake: Yeah, that's a tough one. So, you know, a lot of states now are saying, look, here in California we require you post a job salary, right? So if you're gonna go in, and I think we all have to make that decision. Is it the salary that's attractive? Is the job that's attractive? What is it that's driving you to go there?

David Blake: And, you know, I think as you get older in life, it [00:22:00] sometimes becomes less about the salary, right? It's not like we don't need money to go buy bread. But I think younger in our career, that's the goal. We want to increase our income and obviously increase the jobs that go with it. And as we get older in life, it's the opposite.

David Blake: We sort of want to begin to slow down a little bit and as we take smaller jobs, potentially that could be less income. I mean, I think that's a decision we have to make. But what always drives me sometimes nuts about candidates is, if I post a salary and you come in and you're $15,000 over the posted salary, it's like, what didn't you read in the job?

David Blake: What are you missing? I mean, I was very clear because it's what I can afford, right? The employer's telling you, this is all I got. And so you go through the entire interview process, and I've had this experience where we just love this candidate. And let's start talking about the money. And the first thing I do is I want $20,000 more than the posted salary range.

David Blake: And so I think, you know, in fairness, as a candidate, don't go in expecting more if they've told you what the range is. And if you don't feel comfortable, you don't feel [00:23:00] valued in that conversation and in the sense that "they're not gonna pay me what I'm worth," then don't apply for it. But I think sometimes you have to look at the job in terms of the other intangibles that it offers to you.

David Blake: It might offer you a greater work-life balance. It might give you the opportunity to fix something that's broke that you don't have in the institution you're currently at. You might love the benefits or the retirement, or you're an alum, you wanna come back to the school you graduated from. Don't always look at it just from the standpoint of the compensation.

David Blake: I get it. It's important. That's how you buy bread and milk. But at some point in your career, you will ask yourself, is it just about the money? People I talked to over 50 will tell you it's not all about the money. They've begun to reassess that when they look at jobs.

Kelly Cherwin: So I'm gonna switch gears again. I have more of like a workplace question. So actually I was in high school and I was in a customer service role and I actually had people that were -- I wanna say I was like 16 or 17 at the time -- were way older than me that actually [00:24:00] were kinda reporting to me. So there's that dynamic of, you know, a professional who may be managed by someone who is younger than they are. Do you have advice on how someone can manage those dynamics?

David Blake: Yeah, there's all some pride coming before the fall. My grandmother used to always tell me that. I think there's a certain element of truth to that. At some point, there's always gonna be the possibility that you will work for somebody who is much younger than you.

David Blake: It's just the way it is. As you get older, one of the neat things about being in your career is the opportunity to give back. For example, when I came down here to San Diego and went to work for the law school, my last and former boss was first time president and dean of a law school and was younger than me.

David Blake: I use it as an opportunity to teach and to help that person be successful. To me, that's like the funnest thing ever, watching somebody else grow and succeed, because I've had people do that with me, so I'm a kind of a benefit of that. So I tell people as you get older, yes there are gonna be people that will be younger than you that you might [00:25:00] potentially work for.

David Blake: Use it as an opportunity to give back, use it as an opportunity to help them grow. So some days they're gonna get to be where you are and they can pay it forward or pay it back and do the exact same thing and create a really positive cycle of development.

Andrew Hibel: I'd liken these instances, and this is with anything regarding aging, to remind people that from the day you were born, if you look in the world as two categories, people who are younger than you and people who are older than you, there's only one category that grows every day.

Andrew Hibel: There's no fewer people that are added to the world every day that are older than you, the younger than you people will always be growing. Maybe embrace the fact that this kind of talks about a robust career, the opportunities to give back in those instances and understand that this is a different role you have.

Andrew Hibel: I would say this is a robust area for you as a candidate to evaluate the supervisor or the boss, whatever you want to call the person [00:26:00] who is going to be managing your role. In the interview process, see if they are somebody who is seeking that. What is their desire to build consensus and team and understand the value of their team members?

Andrew Hibel: Those are real questions. If that's something you're seeking in that there's a little bit of an interview going on the other way there. I would also encourage people who are interviewing candidates who are significantly older than they are to consider that, that could be a very large part of why this candidate may or may not work for you.

David Blake: Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's an excellent way to look at it.

Andrew Hibel: Are there any other like absolute nuggets to share with people that aren't so obvious about the post-40 career search?

David Blake: There's lots of different ways we can get quote unquote job satisfaction that aren't necessarily always making more money and not always going directly to the next step, not always getting the best promotion. I volunteer in an organization where I'm just a volunteer. I find that very satisfying. [00:27:00] And in my other hat as a consultant, when I work with people, I find that immensely satisfying. The nice part is I kind of get to pick now. So I always tell younger workers, you know, trust me, there's a time when you're gonna get to pick.

David Blake: Set yourself up now. So when you get there, you're prepared to pick.

Andrew Hibel: What are you volunteering doing? I'm interested to hear.

David Blake: Well, believe it or not, I drive a steam locomotive for an antique railroad. And so anybody on CUPA who knows me knows that I love trains and my dream always was one day to drive a train.

David Blake: But guess what? There's not a lot of train engineer jobs out there for steam locomotives. In fact, there is zero. When I relocated the Southern California, I found out about this antique railroad museum. They're open on the weekends and they do all sorts of things. And so I went over there and said, I have absolutely no idea how to drive a steam train.

David Blake: Uh, I could blow the whistle maybe. And so, uh, I had an individual teach me how to do it, and I became a licensed steam engineer. I do it every Saturday, and it makes me happy. [00:28:00] Actually, my grandson thinks I'm a steam engineer. He does not realize. Haven't told him yet. He's the youngest, so he's like, grandpa drives a train.

Kelly Cherwin: That's so cool.

Andrew Hibel: That's fun.

David Blake: I guess I can describe that as a job, but I don't get paid to do it. But it brings me a heck of a lot of satisfaction, and I think as you get older, that's what you look for. What makes me happy, and I hear that from a lot of people who say, I get up in the morning, I'm not happy anymore.

David Blake: Okay, it's time to make a change.

Andrew Hibel: The only time I was ever disappointed in my dad was when I was a young child and I learned that he was a chemical engineer and not a train engineer. When he said he was an engineer, I'm like, that has to be trains. Thank you so much, David. It's been wonderful getting to spend some time with you.

Andrew Hibel: I'd like to let folks know out there if you have questions for us or any thoughts about this podcast, please email us at podcast@higheredjobs.com or tweet us at @HigherEdJobs. And David, we are so glad we got some time with you. Thank you so much.

David Blake: Thank you both. I've really enjoyed spending my morning with you.

Kelly Cherwin: Thanks. It was fun.

David Blake: [00:29:00] It was.

Andrew Hibel: Thank you.