Andy Hibel (00:06)
Welcome to the Higher Ed Jobs podcast, Ask the Expert edition. I'm Andy Hibel, the Chief Operating Officer and one of the co-founders of Higher Ed Jobs.

Kelly Cherwin (00:13)
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy. Today we're happy to have back our expert Chris Lee. Thanks Chris for joining us. So let's get into the question from our listener. How do you respond to the question of salary in an interview? This one question I've heard this and that about, and I'm eager to have clarification on it. So Chris, let's dive into this question. What do you think?

Christopher Lee (00:21)
My pleasure.

This is a ⁓ big topic, as you know, everybody has the occasion multiple times, hopefully their career, to have such discussions and they are high impact discussions, right? And little small differences in negotiation can make a big difference and kind of take home pay for years to come. So ⁓ it is one that is certainly worth talking about in great detail. I'll first begin by saying.

All applicants should do some research before they start their job search to ensure that the prevailing market bears a salary that is consistent with what they need to exist, right, or what their goals are. And without doing that, then they're kind of at a disadvantage. So showing up for the interview and having that question asked and prompt to one not being prepared for it is really a tough situation to be in.

So that's a big preface. ⁓ How you get there is to do some homework and try to learn what is the market wage, marry that up with one's salary expectations and along with one's professional experiences. So I like to use the shorthand of rookies, veterans and superstars in talking about people at different juncture points in their kind of career.

because each of them will command a different salary and it's important for people to know where they are. So armed with information, they can have a robust conversation with the hiring manager without it kind of stuck. So here's an example. Just yesterday, ⁓ my best friend's son is interested in pursuing an opportunity and the HR person sent him an email and said,

As we advertised, you know, I'm not sure exactly how it went, but he's interested. This is the salary number. Let us know if this is acceptable before we commit to the actual video interview. So it's like a number. So the question becomes, how do you respond to that? And I said to them, accept those terms. Otherwise, you won't get a return call.

That's a screaming mechanism, right? That's it. And that person who is asking the question, they're not empowered to make exceptions or to make decisions around it. So asking them questions is a moot point, right? They're kind of doing their job, right? So how should you react to that? The question is, is that number a good number for you or a bad number for you? You should know that. And the second is, is that number in the market?

And the market is a range. It may or not be really well defined, but let's assume that we're talking about, again, butchers, bakers, and candlestick makers. There's a range that the market bears for candlestick makers. Let's assume that we're going to say it's 10 to 20, right? And if that number is within 10 to 20, then to some degree is fair. If it's above 20, you're probably happy.

And if it's below 10, you're probably unhappy. So you can't really respond to that number unless you have some idea of what the market is. Because the market could be from 12 to 18. The market could be from 15 to 25. So you really have to have some idea for what the market bears for your profession and the particular job that you're looking for. And then you, as a person who's interested in an opportunity, also need to know where you might

fall within that. My friend's son, new master's graduate, I'm going to assume if the range is 10 to 20, they're going to be 10 to 12. And asking for 15 might be unreasonable. So the point is those are two of the bigger factors in how to think about talking about and planning for salary discussions.

Kelly Cherwin (04:54)
So Chris, I want to ask you a question. know you referenced earlier and everything what you said there just made sense, but you said something about it. Does that number make you happy? So I want to make sure that we're, we're, ⁓ informing our audience that you talk about what the market is. ⁓ but like you internally need to know what your number is. So if, if you, if you've done all of your, your homework and you have expenses that are XYZ and the candlestick maker needs,

24,000 a year to survive and you know the the range was 10 to 15. You know is it okay for someone to go okay, I'm just gonna accept that and hope they come up to 24 or you know like do people really have to be like I don't want to waste their time. I don't want to waste my time like how do you know when you should keep going.

Christopher Lee (05:42)
Yeah, that is a good question. And I think anyone can answer that for you and making the decision. That's why it's so important for a person to kind of note their, quote, profession and what it bears and doing some homework to understand it. Hopefully you do that in college. Hopefully you learn some of that as you're a practicing professional. But that is a factor. You know, we'll also say that regents pay different.

Right? mean, everybody knows the cost of living in New York City compared to Des Moines, Iowa is different. So quote, when I say the market, I was really, I was talking about an idea, right? You know, ⁓ and it has practical application because markets do vary. A, and, knowing the market that you're applying in that also affects today's world when we're talking about remote work, because everyone would love to have a

San Francisco Bay, California salary, again, doing remote work from Des Moines, right? You know, you know, Birmingham, Alabama, where I am, which I know the cost of living there is dramatically lower than where I live now in Virginia. And you can look at all kinds of online indices to give you, ⁓ you know, that example, right? And as an example, I haven't looked recently, but, know, Richmond, Virginia near where I live.

In Birmingham, I've always been near the national average. Like national average is one, those cities tend to be around one. When New York City, you know, I can't remember, but I think some of the larger cities can be as high as like 2.1, right? You know, and then, you know, DC might be 1.7, Philly might be 1.6, or in New York City might be over two, right? There's just twice the cost of living. So you have to...

have to kind of know your market for cost of living and then the cost of labor, which is kind of the labor market we're talking about. So those two variables come into play. So you have to decide for yourself what's acceptable to you.

Kelly Cherwin (07:49)
Thank you for that. Sorry to interrupt you.

Andy Hibel (07:52)
Chris, that scenario of your, I believe it's your friend's son who is applying for that first job after graduate school and has a take it or leave it figure for lack of a better description. think that's such an interesting scenario to explore in today's world we live in. Kind of feel like I'm back in law school here and kind of doing a dissection and taking some permutations off of that scenario. Clearly you said there was a range advertised.

It's interesting, it hired jobs pretty much day one. We had salary range as a field on our job postings. That's for those keeping track, that's 1996. That's the President Clinton's middle of his midterm. We had it back then and it's been something we've used that obviously it's changed over the years. That it's a much different use field today than it was back in 1996.

People are really asking about it and talking about it. Salary data is always something that people want to engage with. When asked about it, I'm always one to say, I think it's as much of an art as it is a science. There is no exact place. Back in law school, we're always taught that fair market value is what a willing buyer and willing seller, neither under duress to buy or sell, are willing to exchange an item for. And that's kind of the same thing here.

an employer and a candidate who were looking to do this are going to find a number that they're both comfortable with. Yes. The take it or leave it. It's kind of an interesting scenario. First of all, it's wonderful in some ways because it really gives an opening part to the dialogue where the candidate does not have to disclose what they're doing as far as what they expect. I think your, your article that talks about like just putting something out there.

you may be underselling yourself. I think that that's a really good piece of advice. But I also think, particularly when you see a range in today's day and age, and from what we've seen and heard, assuming that there's one size that fits all on that range, I wouldn't presume that. But I actually think that listening is the most important part of a salary negotiation. The questions you ask, and they're appropriate questions to ask,

that if I was given a take it or leave it figure, of course you need to say, yes, I'll take it or leave it. That's a salary that's okay with me. But if there's clarifying questions about that, and let's just stick a number, ⁓ more of an amorphous number of X on it. And X is the number that I'm given to take or leave. And I find out that ⁓ as ⁓ a candidate, and we'll go down to deciles, that it's

in the first decile and I'm somebody with some experience. I have an issue with that. I think those are the questions that you need to ask about those salary ranges. Hey, what is the highest paid person is in that salary range? those are fair questions to ask and that really kind of tells you what your roadmap is for salary. If the highest paid person's at midpoint and they're offering you midpoint of that in between first and second quartile,

guess what? I'm, I'm pretty good with that. That's a good place to start. If you're a mid career candidate, not every decile is equal, not every quartile is equal. the question I hate there and somebody's like, you're, you have to part of the homework now and almost just as important as, as knowing the salary figures that are out there for me is knowing the laws within the state that you're applying.

make sure you know there are some states and some municipalities where they cannot ask you your current salary. And if they ask you that, that's a whole different set of, if I'm going to go on permutations and hypotheticals about a situation, then a place where if you're willing to violate the law and clearly ask when you're not allowed to ask, what is your current salary? ⁓ that puts some major red flags out there for me. And the other part that I

I don't want people to tune this out because in 2025, you probably heard this so many more times than you needed to, but this is definitely one of those cases. With the increase in salary equity and the increases in commitment to salary transparency and the mixing in of artificial intelligence, we absolutely are going to have different worlds and this world is changing. Pay attention to it.

Do not just assume what you knew in your last job search, even was a couple of years ago, still remains true today. So I put that out there as kind of doing a little bit of, like I said, a hypothetical and I'm sorry for kind of a little bit of a monologue, but boy, you are right. As far as not disclosing what your salary is because the genesis of the discussion, the landing point of it, and this is in both of your pieces that you wrote.

is so important because it has an effect on your life at that institution and the future that you have. So I really encourage we'll have those in the notes. Everybody who's listening to this podcast should read both of those articles and develop their own.

Christopher Lee (13:28)
Yeah. And so you hit on some really, well, a lot of key points, you know, ⁓ and, and let me offer some context, kind of some meta thoughts that helped to shape the dialogue. First, I want to note about, you know, the transparency kind of idea, the salary idea. Most organizations have a compensation plan and they will have quote salary ranges. Now, the question is when they publish.

a vacancy announcement, are they listing the salary range or the hiring range? Completely two different ideas. Great point. So again, going back to our example, let's assume our job might be, you know, 50,000 to 75,000 because a public entity, they may, ⁓ you know, list the whole range that they pay rookies, veterans and superstars, as we said, right? But they're not going to pay 75,000.

$4,000 under no circumstance because their budget is 50 to 58. Right? So you have to kind of know that salary range and hiring, hiring range could be different. Sometimes organizations will just publish the budget, right? We're going to pay between 50 and 58. And so you don't know when the ad is placed, which that is, which is really important. Now, the other part is good.

Kelly Cherwin (14:55)
Chris, just wanna,

so I, there's a lot of confusion here, I think. I just wanna clarify, salary range, hiring range, budget range, like, can you explain a little bit more? Because I, I'm thinking if I'm confused, other people's might be confused as well. So what do you, what do you mean by each one of those?

Christopher Lee (15:15)
Yeah. So salary range is what an organization assumes the market is and that they are going to pay for that position. Right. You know, so again, it's 50 to 75. If we have a person with two years experience or 25 years experience, they're to make between 50 and 75 full stop. Cause that's the value of that position in the marketplace that they have estimated. Now, depending on their budget situation.

their ability to pay. Some organizations rarely pay in that fourth quartile. That's what Andy was talking about, first, second, third, fourth quartile. And then organizations, you're public organization, I've worked for several, those ranges don't change every year because you do a salary study every three to four years. But sometimes they will move the range in accordance to how much is ⁓

appropriated by the legislature. So next year it'll be 52 to 77. And I've seen many people in organizations go, well, I'm not at the midpoint, but I got 25 years experience. Well, because the midpoint moved. You see what I'm saying? So it's an art and a science. Setting the range is a science. How you use the range is an art, right? And so then it goes back to, you know, the second part of that question, which is,

We know what the range is, but people within this organization typically make between 50 and 63, right? And that is what we expect to pay because it's our ability to pay. So, you know, let's assume Lauren, Lauren has been at the organization eight years and she's a great performer and she makes 61.50. You coming in are likely not going to make

60-150 because she's a high performer who's been there a long time. You have similar kinds of experience and they're not going to insult the internal star by paying them 65. They may advertise 50 to 75 and that's going to get, that's a misdirection, but their expected hiring is 50 to 58.

Andy Hibel (17:31)
And that's what would be the hiring range.

Christopher Lee (17:34)
Yes, the hiring range, but again, you know, so Andy, if you want ⁓ some innovation, you know, you might want to pressure your customers to say, the hiring range. Don't put a salary range, right? They're different because the truth is most organizations. Now you really can't do that. Here's why. Because private organizations and some organizations can and might pay more

than what they intended to pay because Andy might show up and Andy is a superstar. go, you know, we plan to pay 58, but we're going to get Andy. So we're going to pay 70 because that person is so exceptional. Right now, public entities most likely are not going to do that. They probably have rules that don't allow that. Private organizations might. So it's a really dynamic thing. And that's why we have in this conversation today, right? It's because

People experience many different factors, but at the end of the day, information asymmetry is the key, right? The organization will always have more information than you have, and people react to that in various different ways based upon their personal circumstances. And Andy offered it, know, hey, I would be insulted to get that offer from that organization, but for that organization, they're actually doing your great service for what they normally pay.

and there's no way to know that.

Andy Hibel (19:03)
Let's deal with the other side of that. The range is 50 to 75, but they offer you 47.

Christopher Lee (19:09)
Yep. I have not seen that and that's pretty much exploitation if it's published. Now, if it's not published, you know, are there some shrewd people out there who will pay you what you're willing to accept? So they ask you, what's your salary expectation? You say 47. They say, oh, we'll offer you 48.5. You know what I'm saying? When they expect it to pay 50 or more. So, you know, that's why it's so important to reduce that information asymmetry by knowing what the market will bear.

Even if you think 48 is a great salary, the market may actually be higher. How would you not know? And so then you have to go do some research. think one of the links in one of the articles is about how to estimate what the market is. And we give, ⁓ you know, readers and listeners a whole bunch of tips and tools to go find information on what the prevailing market wage might be.

Andy Hibel (20:05)
think the self-reflection is so important on this, going with your rookie, veteran, and superstar, looking at that range, whether it be a hiring range or a salary range, and saying, ⁓ let's see how it goes. It's a private institution. I want to make above what the range is. If you're a rookie or a veteran, be realistic about that. That's not going to happen. And while you may be interested in the position, you really need to think long and hard if that's OK with you.

I think so many people have looked at that and not necessarily thought that they are as serious as they are. These are serious numbers. These institutions mean it. They're looking to not only meet what their budget needs are, but also this takes so much time and resources for an institution to hire somebody. They want to be talking to people who are genuinely interested. They don't want to be around people who are just kicking tires.

you should want to feel the same way about your search. You don't want to be spending time that's really not a possibility. You want to be spending time on real possibilities. Yes. So that's kind of the other part I put out there that there needs to be a realistic view of what your candidacy is like. And I think when you network asking people, hey, there's nothing wrong if you're if you're just doing an informal, what we used to call informal interviews back in back in the 90s, saying

Hey, if you were to hire somebody like me at your institution, what generally is the range? You have no relationship there. If it's a public institution, it's probably public information. That's also, I think, a really good sense of what it is. I'd also think there's a lot of associations out there in the various disciplines and the various administrative ⁓ responsibilities that can also give you more substantial data on what people make at other institutions. Absolutely.

I just would point that out as well.

Christopher Lee (22:00)
Yes, yes. That information and homework is there. There's some government sites, professional associations, peer institutions, a whole lot of different ⁓ sources to try to gather data about what's reasonable. And then as you said, you have to have an honest assessment for yourself. If you've got 10 years of experience and you perform well and that sort of thing, ⁓ that's great. Maybe you should be kind of toward the middle of the market. But if you've got four years of experience,

and you're expecting to be in a third or fourth quartile, you may be setting yourself up for failure, right? It's a matter of understanding things. Now, we kind of intimated it earlier, but I want to add here another point, which is the organization's pay policies. You know, sometimes you can find out about them. A lot of organizations just, they have a website and they'll put out for their managers and therefore the public.

Andy Hibel (22:34)
Absolutely.

Christopher Lee (22:57)
⁓ kind of their paid practices. So for example, some will say we only make salary offers up to the midpoint. They don't hire anybody past the midpoint, even the superstar. And they tell you that because they're like, you did well for the Steelers, right? But you know, that didn't apply to the Eagles. So you come here and maybe you'll increase, but you're going to come at the midpoint, even if you were a star elsewhere, that's a paid practice.

And you might want to know that and you might be saying, but I'm a star and I got 14 years of experience. It's nothing personal. That's how they manage their budget. Some have to have an approval to hire beyond, you know, the midpoint and things like that. So if you have any way of learning what their practices are, that is really great. You don't always know, but you can ask the HR department, right? They're likely to tell you the truth, even if it's not published.

But only ask after you've got an invitation to interview. You don't have time to talk to every applicant, right? But even though you get invited to an interview, it's a great call to your HR representative to say, hey, I'm getting ready for this interview, I'm preparing, and I want to make sure that I can offer my services in the best possible way. And oh, by the way, I would like to know X. You know I'm saying? Like pay practices, salary range, all those kinds of things. That's fair game.

Andy Hibel (24:24)
I really like one of the key points in there is I think oftentimes that happens after an offer. I love that you said after an offer for an interview, not an offer for a job. At that point, I think a lot of HR folks feel a little unheard that this would have been much better to work out beforehand than trying to figure it all out now. I think that's playing your cards a little bit too close to your vest at that point.

Kelly Cherwin (24:51)
Chris, I wanted to ask you about a statement you made in your piece here, and I am not discounting the importance of salary. Obviously, we all need to negotiate that and we need to know what we're worth. But you said indicating that you were most interested in the position and the organization and that the salary is not your primary motivation is a smart answer. So can you elaborate a little bit more on that? And do you have suggestions on how we can marry the salary and I'm so interested in this position?

Christopher Lee (25:20)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, first of all, what hiring manager wants to hire someone who's more interested in compensation than the work, right? So it's kind of like saying, hey, you know, give me X or I don't want to talk to you or man, I'm really excited about this kind of work in this job at your institution. You kind of put yourself in favor with the manager because then they want to go advocate for you because they may have a budget for this HR may have a policy around this.

And when they go to ask for an exception, what are they going to say? You know, Kelly wants more money. That's not a great answer. Oh, Kelly, man, she really digs this. She did this to prepare herself. She's interested in that. And she'd be a great addition to my team. You see what saying? It creates a different dialogue when it's not just about a number. And that number sometimes is artificial, right? Sometimes you really need it to make a living.

Sometimes it's just, you know, we pull it out of the air. I want to make 10 % more, 25 % more than my current salary. And we've come fixated on a particular number. Now, we should also note that salary isn't the only variable total compensation is. So people spend way too much time trying to get to that $65,000 number and might take $65,000, and that was their goal, and find out that the value of it

is really 60 compared to their current job because of their benefits and their purposes, right? So before that interview, check the website, Ask HR about their quote, I call them benefits briefs. Most people have them, you know, two page summaries of all the benefits offered and the value of them. So for example, healthcare is an easy one. Your portion of the healthcare is $250 a month.

or could be $450 a month. That's $2,500 right there, right? The retirement contribution match. One place is 4.5%. Some places is 2.5. Some places is 7.5. Some places is 11, like one institution I interact with recently. That's a whole lot of difference. What kind of life insurance or short-term disability? The value of those benefits could easily trump...

a 10 to 15 % increase in salary. So you get a new job, but your take-home pay is essentially the same because the benefit structure and prerequisites are completely different, right? So you can't just focus on that. Then that opens up some negotiation on the other end as well. So you want the 65, they're offering 62. So you may ask for things like a recruitment incentive. You may get a, you know, signing bonus.

$10,000 salary bonus, you know, basically keeps you whole for three and a half years, right? You know, if that's the difference, right? Some places can give you more leave time when you start. The whole point is that there are some variables for senior positions that tend to be some compensation variables, like deferred composition, you know, and things of that sort. The point is that it's not just the salary, it's total compensation.

That's a part of your research as an applicant to understand that concept and what that organization offers vis-a-vis what you currently have.

Andy Hibel (28:55)
I think that's so important, Chris, to emphasize all of those things. Probably would add professional development to that discussion as well. The time to talk about professional development is at this stage, and I think it's so very critical. also think particularly about professional development shows commitment to what you do. That's not just that this is just about the job. It's about the career and the work that we do. And I want to get better at it. I also think if you're asking these questions and you're thorough and professional,

I actually think it reflects very, very well on your candidacy. If you're somebody who really wants to evaluate the ethos of an institution and sees the salary transparency and pay equity as being important, I've really seen some of this and I really, really respect the institutions that are doing it. They might actually tier the co-payments on your health insurance based on what you make salary wise.

Somebody who makes more salary wise pays a larger amount of the piece of pie than somebody who makes less. So much of it has been traditionally just one size fits all. Where's the equity there to? And the cost of health insurance should really not be underestimated. Institutions are paying a lot more than even five years ago, and God help me, 10 years ago. So those things are extremely, extremely important. And I'm just gonna leave with one last thought and just want your take on it.

This has been a wonderful conversation. And I think the part that just kind of has stuck with me throughout is I'd to get rid of the topic being called negotiation. This shouldn't be salary negotiation. It should be the genesis of your work relationship diplomacy. This is really about how you diplomatically and professionally handle yourself with the institution that's there. And once again, as I feel like a broken record, cause I say this often,

how they handle it with you. This is a big test. If that's a great Genesis, be excited. That's a special thing. You have a great opportunity there. If you're seeing red flags in it, don't ignore them.

Christopher Lee (31:05)
like that and that phraseology of diplomacy. That's a cool idea. ⁓ And to continue that thought, one technique I found to be very valuable, something I did early on ⁓ kind of unintentionally, but I've recommended it to others, is to accept the job, but not the salary in order to keep the negotiations going.

Right? You know, when you're not where you need to be. So it's kind of like saying, oh, Andy, I'm excited to join the team with you and John and Kelly. Oh, man, this is a great career opportunity for me or whatever, but I got to talk to my spouse or I need to reflect on the salary to make sure that I can meet my obligations. So they know that you're coming, right? Now you're on the team.

That's a completely different conversation, right? Now, don't do that if you're not gonna accept the offer as it is offered, because then it's totally disingenuous, right? But the point is that you want more, but now's not the time to really have that conversation. Then Andy can go back to his desk and say to his colleagues, hey, we got this great guy joining the team, we gotta work out some details. And meanwhile, Chris is gonna come back with a counter-offer, you know what saying?

But counter offering with somebody who has committed to joining feels totally different than somebody who is saying, gimme, gimme, gimme, right? It's a different dynamic and I found that to be very, very useful. It's almost as if you're on the same side of the table being adversarial and looking for a particular note.

Kelly Cherwin (32:54)
Well, thank you, Chris. I think that's a great place to end and wrap up the conversation. As Andy said, I really enjoyed this conversation as well. And I hope our listeners enjoyed as well and learn something.

Andy Hibel (33:03)
Chris, I too appreciated our time together today and really hope that folks listening were able to take a lot from this episode. For those who are listening out there, I'm sure this produced questions and thoughts. Please send them to us. We'll share them all with Chris. You can email us at podcasts@higheredjobs.com or send us a direct message on x @higheredcareers. We really appreciate you being here today, Chris. Thanks for spending the time.

Christopher Lee (33:32)
My pleasure as always to have a conversation with you two.

Kelly Cherwin (33:36)
Thanks Chris.

Andy Hibel (33:37)
Thank you for listening. We'll talk to you again real soon.