Mike 0:01
[MUSIC]

Andy 0:02
>> Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast, Ask the Expert Edition. I'm Andy Hibel, the Chief Operating Officer, and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly 0:10
>> And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the Director of Editorial Strategy. Today, we're joined by Daniel B. Griffith, a long time HigherEdJobs contributing writer and author and residence, as well as a mediator, educator, lawyer, HR leader, and author with more than 30 years of experience, helping professional and organizations, avigate conflict, communication, and workplace challenges. Dan specializes in mediation, negotiation, and conflict resolution across higher education, nonprofit, government, and business settings. His work focuses on helping individuals respond thoughtfully to difficult workplace including moments of loss, transition, and uncertainty. Dan, thank you so much for joining us today.

Daniel Griffith 0:49
Glad to be here as always.

Kelly 0:51
>> So, Dan, you recently wrote an article for us titled, "Am I a victim of a discrimination; separating facts from beliefs? It was in response to a listener question that was submitted to us." So, we're going to discuss this today, and I think it's actually going to resonate with a lot of people who are navigating workplace transitions and uncertainty. I recommend everyone to read the article if you're able to, will link in the podcast notes, but Annie and I wanted to dig deeper into this conversation today, surrounding that every single question I should say. So, the question is, I've been in my role for a long time, and recently went through a hiring and restructuring process at my institution. I can't prove it, but I have a strong feeling that my age played a role in how decisions were made. Now I'm trying to figure out how to respond. Should I pursue a formal complaint? Should I stay and try to Or should I start looking elsewhere? Dan, what are your thoughts on this?

Daniel Griffith 1:43
Well, I think one issue is, if you feel that this may have happened and maybe an age issue, you may well be right, that's different than being able to prove that case. So, that's where we need to think about the complaint we might want to follow through on or what you would do that. You know, it turns to discrimination kind of issues. I have prior experiences way in terms of a lawyer doing this in a position, again, way back. But this surface level of perception where you see someone else taking an opportunity that you're denied. It's clearly that you were qualified and this person seems or equally qualified or less than, and it's clearly you see a different usage of age. So, the surface is easy to see it that way. And even the law recognizes what's called that prime and face the case. We're at that that level, you know, okay, we see that differential. But there's more to that, you know, that doesn't prove. It's because of age versus other factors. And I think that's where it gets really sticky and difficult. One thing I said in your article, want to not at least consult with an to at least get some initial information to understand the law there. But I know one thing that that probably find is, first of all, the smoking gun. You know, I didn't hire you because of your age, you're not going to see that too much. There's going to be a lot of circumstantial made a lot of deeper documentation. A lot of behaviors and patterns that aren't going to be easy to prove. And that probably would be the kind of inquiry you would get in terms of how can you establish this? What do you have? And not to mention that a lot of that documentation isn't going to be in your direct hands versus something that has to be looked into from the employer. You know, even one comment I made is, for example, if it's a hiring issue and then hire it, of course, so many decisions are made by committee. And who knows what's going on in those committee conversations. And I can imagine situations where subtle comments made or comments that on the surface seem fair enough as people are talking about candidates. But maybe implicit is some feelings that aren't really clear of why they prefer a younger candidate versus someone older, but you're not going easily pierce that. And I can easily find that information to have a prove it. So I think at that level is recognizing that the energy and the effort and the struggle of actually making that formal complaint ticket a law suit may be something you'd really want to think twice about. And the energy, the emotional cost, the on our lives versus trying to move forward as hard as it may be those things are things that really take seriously. Now, the question was about complaint. So, of course, it could be going more informally, going internally to human resources, which would be a little different standard. I mean, they would, it might be attentive to the law, but they might say, well, it's not just about what the, a lawsuit would say. It's about whether or not this is real or not. So, the question is whether or not at least some exploration in terms of what the experience was, what's going on. And some explanation back to the employee in terms of what's going on might be due might be but that's a different conversation maybe just the idea of do I have a case or I'm going to stop the air to say other follow up, but those are initial thoughts. They have some more thoughts to in terms of just how to respond, but that's some initial thought and sort of the complaint itself and what he would pursue that or not.

Andy 5:15
I think Dan, you, you, you did a great job of kind hitting like all the bases of the article. The article was kind of divided up into easy to digest chunks. And you titled each one of the chunks, I think that's a formal writer's term. One of them was consider the toll it will take and then to look at the big picture.

Daniel Griffith 5:37
Yeah

Andy 5:37
And the question actually was a very long question. So we cut it a little short, but there was after asking the question, the, the writer said something, which was at the same time, I'm dealing with a lot of disappointment and uncertainty about what this means for my career moving forward. And to me, this is, well, first of all, completely understandable and whoever wrote this question, you're super entitled to feel that way. And I think just about anybody in this situation would be feeling that way, particularly if you're over the age of 40 and having family pressures and other pressures on you financial ones. It's really important what happens with your career. And if it's taking a sidetrack, that's a very, very scary thing for somebody as they get older and has those sorts of applications. That said, it's one of those things where I kind of, it's a spiral down the hole is what I would call it. You can't spiral down the rabbit hole in these situations. You can't play the videotape too fast to get to that point. stay out of the rabbit hole hanging out at the rabbit hole is absolutely fine. Acknowledging that and giving those feelings and identification and calling them out is so important. But try to stay out of that rabbit hole if you get sucked into that, you're only going to make decisions based on what they look like in the rabbit hole. And we all know in the rabbit hole, they don't look like reality. You need to stay above it to keep your head in the game. And then the final section being, look at the big picture,

Daniel Griffith 7:18
Yeah.

Andy 7:19
really see that big picture of putting all these factors together. And I thought, I thought that was a wonderful, wonderful way to kind of bring all these different factors together.

Daniel Griffith 7:29
Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, when I hear you say that is one is we dwell on it. Is this because of my age, you know, are they seeing him too old, whatever. And then, one of the worst things could happen too is like, well, maybe I am. Maybe, maybe, maybe there's something they're telling me there. And that's a problem we could dwell on and overthink versus, you know, an older worker. I mean, I'm just going to say we offer something, you know, they're saying for myself, we offer something we have wisdom, we have all these things that can be brought forward. But even in that part of the article, I say, you know, without trying to make this controversial, is are there things around this experience that says I can build from, that maybe I'm in different place career wise that may be the position I feel denied. I don't want to say just too hard. You know, hardly, you know, but is that that maybe there's something different that I a different focus, a different approach, a different kind of work. And maybe this is beginning to look at that journey because I'm in the right place to do that where I hadn't been or again, it may be opposite. It may be truly you, you're entitled, of course, it's the position that you really wanted, didn't get. And you felt that that's what you want to push for and you're right person for it. it. So how do you navigate that either way? It is a lot of perspective taking. It is a lot of thinking through in terms of how I navigate my current situation. Again, for most people, I would think it's like it's not going to be worth the energy to pursue something formally. What does that mean in terms of how I navigate now? Continuit of work, continue to be And maybe you'll work. I mean, we hear these two. You know, one thing even said in your article was it's it's probably difficult to move to that next position. At least that's a perception man the older workers have in terms of, you know, This just job internally, I was seeking was important because I don't see being able to easily move to some other organization to get a work similar and that's a perception. I think my age is going to be a barrier for that next position, at least that's what some of the research is suggesting. So that's that that's a double whammy, perhaps, makes it even more difficult to then take that step. But regardless, we have to sort of take stock, look that big if you're in a situation, at least we are working. Manage it that way as we take the time to look at that next opportunity. No, no easy answers here. Right, and not to take this lightly either, but those are some thoughts that we might hold on to to then navigate as we think about how we've been treated and what that means moving forward.

Kelly 10:06
Then I make great points there and I think as human, sometimes we we dwell too much on, know, the negative the situation like you said, like maybe I maybe maybe it's me, maybe I'm, you know, I'm too old for this this position or maybe like kind of blaming all these outside factors, but then you could look at the other perspective of. Maybe there's another opportunity out there at a different institution that's a better fit. I can I'll be happier and so there's always that other there is a bright side, I get I'm not trying to diminish this is a real issue. But like changing our mindset saying what if there is something better out there. So I don't know it's it's again, I'm not trying to diminish this this person's question or the issue because it it is it is it's It's a big it's a big questions big issue so.

Daniel Griffith 10:57
Well, I think to if the first question or the question to I do something formally do if you'll complain even internally, you know, if we do it in a formal way, then that frankly even starting at process even this can create all this consternation and frankly that that maybe you don't want. So obviously, you know, how do I navigate how do I think about short of that to make the best of my current situation. I mean, one thing comes to mind, he isn't hearing Kelly is the idea that without putting age, so that's the other thing if you want to bring up express the concern. Other than maybe more formally with HR, for example, maybe not say it age, but just saying, hey, I am disappointed. And and I'm seeing there's not full appreciation for what I've been I even saying I need a little help here. I need a really little help to think about the work I'm doing. So maybe some honest assessment, not a Critical assessment, but an honest assessment of the work. What I can do what I can offer. I want to look at new directions. I still want to support this institution. And maybe simultaneously as you're doing that, as you said, Kelly, starting with just some conversations, some information interviews, contacting people, learning about what other opportunities might be out there, not just randomly applying. Could be the same kind of thing. It's like, I just feel I'm in new place. I want to explore new opportunities. And I think you can do that without putting out age is reason. Just saying that I'm Just informally, in a different place. And I just want to see what that might mean, quietly, even as you feel disappointed about it, and that it may be because of your age in terms of what recently happened to you.

Kelly 12:38
thanks Dan. This conversation was definitely informational. I hope it was useful to the listener that submitted it. So we appreciate having you on today.

Daniel Griffith 12:47
Thamk you for chance to talk about this.

Andy 12:49
And thank you for listening. We help you found this conversation is enjoyable and as we did. If you have a question for an expert like Dan or some thoughts about today's podcast, feel free to share them with us at podcasts@HigherEdJobs@.com or drop us message on X @HigherEdCareers. Thank you for listening. And we look forward to talking again with you real soon.