Mike 0:02
[MUSIC]

Andy 0:03
>> Welcome to the HigherEdJobs Podcast. Ask the expert edition. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly 0:11
>> And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the Director of Editorial Strategy. Today, we're joined by Daniel B. Griffith, a long time HigherEdJobs contributing writer and author and residence, as well as a mediator, educator, lawyer, HR leader, and author with more than 30 years of experience, helping professionals and organizations navigate conflict, communication, and workplace challenges. Dan specializes in mediation, negotiation, and conflict resolution across high education, nonprofit, government, and business settings. His book, Everyday Mediator, Seven Practices for Navigating Conflict, focuses on helping individuals build the skills to address conflict in everyday work and life. Dan, thank you so much for joining us today.

Dan 0:50
>> Glad to be here.

Kelly 0:51
>> So, we have a listener submitted question for you, and I think we'll have a lot to discuss here. So, I'll start with a question, and we'll get your thoughts on it. The question is, how do I navigate maintaining and building relationships at my institution after a restructure that involved the elimination of my role and being offered another role at the institution with a pay cut. And the listener actually goes on to give a little bit more background that I'll add here. They said, I've learned that this restructure was happening behind the scenes with a high level of secrecy. So, there's definitely some loss of trust on my end. I'm also struggling with how to show up professionally while still allowing myself to process how everything unfolded. So, Dan, where do you want to start with this?

Dan 1:34
>> Yeah, well, thanks, Kelly. Thanks, Andy. Good to see you both and good to spend some time here. Yeah, well, as a starting point, actually, when you first submitted this to me for me to look at, I responded back that this sent a little familiar to my own situation with a few changes. My situation was I was actually part of the whole DEI change going on in universities. And I had my job eliminated. I was offered a new position not with a pay cut. And really not the secrecy and lack of trust that they referred to here, but the reality is, if that by chance is the kind of situation we're talking about, there was a lot of scrutiny going on, broadly. And so, when I hear that, a person talk about secrecy, trust, one question is, was there a reason for that? Did the person ask in terms of what's going on? And I'm not trying to make an assumption here, but at least the situation I had, it really was a time where my supervisor who didn't want to do what she had to do was trying to protect the employees myself included by realigning them, but how to do it under very unique circumstances. So, that'd be my first question is simply, what's meant by secrecy? And obviously, this person is due some transparency. So, the question is, what are those kind of questions that are asked and how this was responded to? I can understand it feeling a lack of trust. I can understand the disappointment and depending on the situation there may be a reality behind that because it may not have been a handled effectively, but it's just a bigger, broader question, first of all, in terms of how does this manage and what we mean by secrecy, whether or not there's reasons for being a little bit confidential for a while. Obviously, in my situation, eventually I was explained to me what was going on. There was, I had total trust in my supervisor which may be different from this person. So, there's those dynamics to really explore. I would say beyond that would be the idea that certainly an explanation is due. So, that would be the inquiry to start with is simply, hey, I'm disappointed, I don't understand this. And if you're not feeling a good explanation, that would be a concern that really would and then how do you navigate that? Obviously, if you can ask the right questions, would be can I know more about why the restructuring, why does this result in the pay cut? By the way, does this mean that my duties are different and maybe not the same where others impacted is this a broader perspective? So, those are the legitimate questions that I would hope are being answered by this person. And if not, which may be implied in the question, then maybe it's an issue of true distrust and a valid concern this person has. Maybe the final question if there's any follow up after this would be the final issue would be if that's the case, the reality is you still have to show up. You still have to be professional. You still have to do your work as long as you have a job. And you know, it is hard. I can well imagine I've had situations going to work where didn't feel appreciative of different circumstance and it is hard. It is tempting to reduce effort. It's tempting to feel resentment, but you know, it's not the people around you that are necessarily causing a problem. It is a situation as it is. So do the best you can be professional, act accordingly and then maybe take your time to search for a small figure out what's going on in your institution, what's going your situation, push where you can to get legitimate answers. And if that trust is really violated, then by your time plan, get a support system around there, do all the things you can to methodically, I would say methodically look for that next opportunity versus being rash, being reactive, doing anything, it diminishes your professional standing your approach, because that's not going to do you any good, even if things have been caused to you, this harm of some sort. So there's some initial thoughts that to come to mind when I think of that situation.

Kelly 5:36
So then you said in a make sure to to follow up and ask questions, which I completely agree that's a good approach just to clarify though, are you suggesting that this person talk with their supervisor or they go to HR like how how does a person know where and when or is there another resource that they should be connected with.

Dan 5:54
Well, obviously I think the how is this decision initially communicated with them, so obviously the questions would be good to start there, you know, is that their former you know I don't apply this by the way in the restructuring is I had a boss, now I have a new boss, so somewhere between those two would be, you know, can I know more what's going on. You know, I don't want to operate in a dark so you that would be the case, I do think that if for some reason you're not feeling that trust, hopefully there is the appropriate avenue like human resources, it's a typical place to go for in this response, maybe institutions large enough, they might have an on board. I need help navigating the situation, I need to understand what's going on and you're seeing why I'm placing and I'm not getting probably getting some answers, I'm not getting them in a satisfactory fashion, I'd really like to know more about what's going on, I'm not trying to make a big deal of it, but for me to be an employee, the partner in it in the relationship to keep supporting a situation, whatever what have you, I feel I'm kind of do this so can can someone help me navigate this to get the answers I need.

Andy 6:59
Dan, I really feel like the the human part of this is something that you keep coming around like the feelings here let's just call it out they're legitimate, you should be feeling that way do not deny yourself those feelings

Dan 7:14
Precisely

Andy 7:15
and trust is something that takes a lot to build and even in good relationships, it needs to be built and rebuilt it doesn't just happen. And something like this, even if it turns out well is going to feel like a violation of trust

Dan 7:30
yeah

Andy 7:30
I'd also say trying to just kind of read into it, if these are the feelings are being expressed at this stage of the game and this much was expressed, I do think asking the questions are are very good idea and doing so in a professional and I think concise way. To expect answers to give you any more satisfying of a feeling is probably not a reasonable expectation and leaving it at that is the professional thing to do if they don't want to tell you they're not going to tell you

Dan 8:03
right

Andy 8:03
and trying to force that issue is not going to help thanks,

Dan 8:06
right

Andy 8:07
which I think produces for many folks, a feeling of helplessness in addition to that lot of trust. What I would say to that feeling of helplessness is in legitimizing the feelings about feeling like you're caught in a situation that was not something that was warranted is go out there be a professional and show the community there everybody is good at doing this as you were your previous position. And what they did was a mistake and

Dan 8:38
right yeah.

Andy 8:38
give it some time if you want people can vote with their feet if you want to look someplace else go for it that you're your title to that but if you don't want to look someplace else do a good job in this role and show them that you want another role that is of your choosing and say listen. Not only did I take my medicine the way you ask me to I thrived in the situation you put me and I think I'd really appreciate being recognized with a role it's a little bit better suited for my skills.

Dan 9:10
Right. Absolutely. And I think you know the kind of questions you're asking. You know, what I think of this too is when this is first happening, it's a shock. So it's a matter of, I've got to process this a little bit. So the worst thing we can do is be active. Be too quick about it. If I were me, I might think in terms of I've got to get a plan to get our how I get my answers, the plan to get how I manage my current work here. I agree. Concise questions. I get the questions answered you can't push too far. But it would be that you know where where can you get good explanations internally think about is that satisfying? Yes or no? Probably not. In terms of building trust. But obviously then moving forward to say, Okay, that my next plan then is how do I now having my current job and plan for that? How do I manage navigate for my future? Does that mean staying here? Does that mean moving on? But all that taking time, all that as internally hard that may be to plan that accordingly? Yeah, the professional approach, non-reactive, demonstrating that professional, your qualified, you do good work that shouldn't be diminished. But yeah, in that too is by the way with your new workplace that's all the more reason you don't want to complain, be resentful, create this sort of story around your situation that people had no part in in the first place just because of what you've experienced. All these things are crucial to put yourself in the best spot knowing that your situation is not ideal.

Kelly 10:39
Dan, I think you're not being reactive, because that's only going to make the situation a bit more worse. And we talk about this a lot on the podcast of not burning bridges. And I know we've we've all acknowledged how hard this is, especially with the pay cut. I mean that adds a little bit even more just hurt to the situation. But yeah, trying to professional and continue to show up, I think is so important. We are not trying to diminish like, oh, this is easy, just go, you know keep on keeping on, but being very, very strategic and thinking softly is definitely the best approach.

Dan 11:11
Maybe one thing that is we're talking what's happening internally. So what is this person doing also externally? Turns out their own support system, processing it, at least family friends, whatever. And even there, I mean, legitimately expressing concerns, obviously that's more confidential, but hopefully among people can help you process and problem solve and practically look at this while you're hurting, while you're feeling disappointed, while you're not hiding that, but not to make this a whole, you know, don't let it destroy you. I mean, that's what I think sometimes these kinds of disappointments can do. You know, find the right support to to navigate to processes to be who you are, to be confident and proud of who you are, of what externally has happened to you,

Andy 11:56
That's well put, Dan. I kind of want to just end on one kind of footnote to the conversation. We've talked a lot from the candidate perspective and definitely the healing part that that you just brought up, Dan. I'd like the fact that this candidate did not do anything rash in response to it

Dan 12:15
right?

Andy 12:15
and is kind of trying to figure out and the I think the way they used his process, what has happened. I think from the employer side, it's really, really interesting. In my 30 years with higher ed jobs, one of the things you commonly hear from employers is, how do we keep good employees? And I think when things like this happen, they there's a tunnel vision that employers can fall into, which is, well, this isn't necessarily a plea that I'm that worried about. If we lose them, I'm going to be bummed but that's part of the cost of doing business. I really don't like that because I think it sets an example that if this can happen to one of my colleagues, this can happen to me. There's a second hand effect of doing things this way. Being transparent, being open, making real reasons and making them public as to why these moves are being made is the right way to do this, to do a process that is not transparent and is very much hidden and have results just announced and people are told to accept. I think this far more damage to the organization over time than whatever you might be saving from that pay cut or reorg that you just did.

Dan 13:40
Absolutely. To me, and plighting the question is all those things not happening as you've described. It's like, if I'm in a decision making role and it can't be just one person, it's a lot of people involved in this reworking of things. It's like, did it not dawn on someone? It's like, hey, and is it not just to simply play with others? It's like, hey, if we're doing this, if we need to do it, we realize it has to be done. Maybe it's budget, maybe funding, whatever's not coming in the way it had. It's like, do we not need to think about the end of this in terms of who is impacted, it's astounding that that's implied in this question that somehow just say you're moving over here, here's your pay, probably not saying it this way, but don't complain, just do your job. That's the implication I'm getting from this question, and astounding that an organization would do that. But absolutely a lesson to those, to not do that, to really think in terms of methodically doing this, recognizing impacts, explaining along the way, working with them to manage situations as possible, validate their their contributions, all these things that need to happen as it's happening so that that person can be repositioned as best possible under difficult circumstances.

Kelly 14:55
Well, thank you so much, Dan.

Dan 14:57
Appreciate the opportunity to share on this. I hope it was valuable for people.

Andy 15:00
And thank you for listening. If you have questions for experts like Dan or other thoughts about this conversation, please feel free to email us at podcast@HigherEdJobs. com, or send us a direct message on X @HigherEdCareers. Thank you for listening and we look forward to talking to you again.