E18
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[00:00:00] Andrew Hibel: Welcome to the HigherEdJobs Podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

[00:00:09] Kelly Cherwin: And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy here at HigherEdJobs. Today we are fortunate to have Halle Crawford, Hallie's, a certified career coach, speaker, and author based in Atlanta, Georgia.

Her team of coaches have helped thousands of career seekers find a job that makes them wanna jump out of bed in the morning to go to work. Her company website is createyour careerpath.com. Welcome Hallie. We are so excited to have you here today.

[00:00:33] Hallie Crawford: Thank you for having me. I'm excited as well.

[00:00:37] Kelly Cherwin: So, let's jump into our questions here.

So today we're gonna be talking about the the do's and don'ts of working with a career coach, and we're gonna try to help our listeners today kind of navigate some of these items. So Hallie, what are three of the most common questions you receive from your clients seeking career advice and what are your responses to them?

[00:00:54] Hallie Crawford: It's a great question. So there's so many questions. Obviously when people come to us [00:01:00] for career coaching for different reasons. But if I had to say the most common, like top three would be number one is should I look for a new job? How do I know if it's time to make a career shift into something, even if it's just a little bit different?

And how do I know if there's something better out there? Because we always have this, is the grass really greener on the other side? That's one of the first ones. The second one is how do I figure out my long-term career direction? How do I know what the right fit is for me in the long run? And make plans according to that, you know, what are kind of the different criteria, if you will, that I need to be considering?

And then the final one is how do I like get over any fears I have about achieving my career goals, how do I boost my confidence? That kind of softer side of things that people will tend to just stay in the job that they have just because it's easier [00:02:00] without really being proactive about their career path.

And they'll look back a year later or whatever it is and be like, Ugh, I didn't work towards my goals like I should've because I procrastinated. Or whatever.

[00:02:12] Kelly Cherwin: So now that you've told us the common questions, how do you respond to your clients?

[00:02:16] Hallie Crawford: So with the first one, how do I know if there is something better out there, and should I just kind of look and see if there is something better?

We always tell people that, uh, we want them to be really practical and realistic about thinking through what might be the best next step for them. And if they're unhappy in any way, shape, or form, there is something that they should do about it. Whether it's making changes where they currently are, if they can, talking with their boss or whatever it is.

But we always feel like it is worth kind of checking things out, looking on job boards to see what else might be out there. You don't have to apply to anything. You could just do a little bit of research. And so we want people to like not settle for [00:03:00] something that they're not really enjoying. We want them to be proactive about kind of taking charge of, or taking the reins with their career path.

And we always tell them, just take a look and see what else is out there. Maybe talk to some friends or some colleagues at other universities or other places just to see what it's like in different spots that can help you make a decision about whether to stay or go if you're on the right track, et cetera.

It's always worth looking because you don't have to make a move. You can just kind of check things out. So that's the first one.

[00:03:31] Andrew Hibel: It’s interesting you mentioned that because over the years, that is one of the questions we get regularly and what we try to say or what I try to say, I'm using more of a collective we.

The biggest career malpractice you can do on your own career is not have a sense of what the market is like and within higher education, most of these disciplines that folks are in on the academic side or career paths, you are on the administrative side, are a relatively small community of folks. [00:04:00] Yeah. So having a sense of what's out there is pretty darn easy.

You can set up a, a job alert, we call them job agents and HigherEdJobs, and we can send it to you weekly of new jobs that have been posted within your category of jobs. Yeah. And it's so simple to do it and it's amazing. If you look at our website and we just had our recent user survey, it's usually roughly about a third of the folks who come to HigherEdJobs aren't actively looking for a job.

They're trying to keep themselves up on their career, if you will, and that is one of the most popular ways of doing it. So it's one of those things that not only are people told to do, it seems like people are actually doing that. And it's great to hear that your team feels the same way.

[00:04:42] Hallie Crawford: It is really good. I think in the past people were more hesitant to do that, but with all this stuff with Covid, the great resignation, all of that, people are taking more of a stand for wanting to be happy in their jobs, and they are more willing to just kind of like, It's like dipping your toe in the water.[00:05:00]

In the past, I think people felt like it's black or white. Okay. I either have to go full force with my job search or not at all. And it's like, no, no, you can just kind of test the waters to stay on top of things. And if something happens, okay, great. If that's the right thing, but if nothing else, to your point, kind of just seeing what the market is and checking in with colleagues regularly is a really good thing to do.

So that's really smart and I'm glad that people are doing that cause we would definitely validate that. And the second thing kind of as part of this is in terms of how do I figure out my career direction? That's the second main question we get. And it's understandable, right? Because it can be really confusing.

Just like other really big life decisions, like what are all of the different things we need to be considering in order to know where do I wanna go in the long run with my career? And part of why it gets confusing is what we tell our clients is that there's at least eight things that you need to consider in order to really [00:06:00] clearly define your long-term career goal.

And we have a career model that we use with our clients and it shows them those eight things and what's interesting to me is that it's not rocket science. You have to be considering things like your compensation, obviously, the right work environment, what is gonna be the best use of your strengths, but people tend to forget about some of the other things related to the model or that are on the model, like what's my personality type and how does that fit with the role that I'm in, the culture that I’m in.

They need to think about what the right work environment is. I mean, that can be a make or break for being in the right career fit. So you wanna take the time to really think it through and not just jump from job to job, to job, like kind of testing things out, right? But you really wanna consider all of those different components very clearly and carefully so that then you can create a path for the long run that [00:07:00] really is gonna be a fit for you. And people tend to either forget some of those pieces of the model, they kind of skip over them, or they're like, oh, I forgot to think about the work environment, for example. Or they don't know how to answer some of those deeper questions for themselves, so that's why they get a little bit confused and lost.

[00:07:17] Andrew Hibel: Could I, can I stop you real quick? Sorry. Yeah. I think that this is a, should be a fun follow up question for you. I'm 54, still trying to figure out my career path. Is it okay for me to change my answers over the years?

[00:07:29] Hallie Crawford: Yeah, it is, and they probably will change. They most likely won't change dramatically because you're still the same person.

Right? And your strengths. You didn't suddenly go learn how to do something completely different necessarily. In some cases people do and that's fine, but yeah, they should change over time. What we want to feel challenged over time, we wanna try something new maybe, and our values can change over time a little bit. So absolutely those answers can change.

[00:07:57] Andrew Hibel: Yeah, because I don't think, when I graduated college in [00:08:00] 1990, I thought about finding a job that was hybrid where I can hotel in the office three times a week was a possibility for work environment. Yeah, I think a lot of folks nowadays probably are reexamining their answers to those questions.Uh, and those, those eight topics.

[00:08:13] Hallie Crawford: Big time. And we've seen much more of that, which we think is a good thing. They're reexamining, they're, you know, going for what they want and what is gonna be a fit versus just being passive. So it is, it's good. That's one of the good things that came out of this. So the third question that we get is it's kind of like, how do I boost my confidence to make a move?

How do I get over the fear of making a move? We have not had anybody ever say, I am so excited to go job searching. It's not a people's like favorite thing to do, and that's understandable. So that's why people put it off for so long. Or they don't conduct a search like as effectively as they could. In order to boost your confidence [00:09:00] and get over any fears that you have or whatever is, take it in baby steps.

Don't see it as, okay, in three months I have to have this brand new job, and you're putting all of this pressure on the process. Create a plan for yourself that involves doing something, even if it's relatively small every single day, like first thing in the morning or at your lunch hour, whatever is the most reasonable thing for you with your schedule, and just break it down into reasonable chunks.

Another thing that kind of goes to one of our second questions that we're gonna answer is we want people in terms of their confidence, start to talk with colleagues or friends or family members, and even interview them a little bit about what do they see are your strengths, so that as you're starting to update your materials and your LinkedIn and stuff like that too, you're starting to get grounded again in what you bring to the table. And that is huge. Not just for your confidence to make a move, but also when you're in an interview to [00:10:00] sell yourself.

[00:10:01] Kelly Cherwin: So what you're just saying actually ties in well, to what I was thinking for the next question in terms of, of career stages, and you know, someone who might be a little bit overwhelmed, and I know Andy, we were kind of talking about different ages and and stages in our, our career entry level to mid-level, to executive level.

So if someone is in the mid to executive level position and they find themselves in a job search and they haven't been in a job search in a while, and they find themselves completely overwhelmed, what advice, in addition to what you just mentioned, would you give this person to kind of tackle that career search?

[00:10:34] Hallie Crawford: We've actually, this is one of the things we tell clients and we've had them say, it was such a great idea for them. Start reaching out to your network a little bit. So in addition to working on your materials like resume, LinkedIn, et cetera, that's really important. That's kind of the internal work. It's a really good idea to start doing some informational interviews, reconnecting with former colleagues, just checking in with them and [00:11:00] like, hey, how are you doing?

It doesn't have to be that formal of a process but talking with them a little bit about what they're doing in their career and maybe even sprinkling in as part of that, what are some of my strengths that you've seen? So people that you know really well and just kind of talking with them to get grounded again and get yourself out there.

You can ask some of those people maybe for support and like accountability during the course of your search too, but just that act of like talking with people and kind of getting outside of yourself a little bit more, clients tell us that that is so helpful for them because it boosts their confidence in talking with people and brushing up on their networking skills and kind of refreshing their network a little bit, but it makes them feel like less alone because nine times outta 10, that person that you're talking to too will say, oh yeah, I know how job searching is. Like here's something that helped me. So in addition to like your materials and making a plan and all of that, start to get out there a little bit more and connect with [00:12:00] people and that will help boost your confidence and feel a little bit better too.

[00:12:03] Andrew Hibel: Has any of that advice changed now for people who are entering their first job search since Covid has joined our world?

[00:12:11] Hallie Crawford: I would say the way that it has changed, the act of doing that has not changed, but the way that it's changed as people obviously are reconnecting in a lot of ways more remotely and using LinkedIn more for networking and like virtual networking events and that kind of stuff.

[00:12:29] Andrew Hibel: Speaking particularly with a mid-career person who maybe has used Zoom or teams or whatever when we had to isolate deeply. But now that's become part of the workforce. And now if you're a mid-career person, you may be entering a job search where you were not that familiar with the electronics of it, perhaps. But now you're also adding, using these tools that a lot of us use day to day nowadays, but now using them in a way where you used to connect with people face to face. And send a letter with your resume and cover. Now [00:13:00] you're in the, the world that we're in today, not only adjusting to some maybe of the, the nuts and bolts of job search.

But also how we're connecting with, with each other. Just kind of more wondering, has your advice changed for somebody who might not be familiar with that? What translates well? What does not translate well?

[00:13:15] Hallie Crawford: Yeah. With the nuts and bolts of job searching, obviously there's so much more technologically that we have to be up on.

You need to get familiar and really comfortable with Zoom and online platforms and doing video calls and feeling comfortable with that because in some cases, that's the only way that someone is gonna connect with you. With interviews, even in some cases there isn't another person, even on the other side of the camera, and they give you a certain amount of time and maybe one redo for each question where they're interviewing you that way.

So getting more comfortable with the non-face-to-face, doing some practice video calls with some friends, family members, all of that, just so you get some of that under your belt and feel a little bit [00:14:00] more comfortable with it, is gonna be really, really important because you are gonna have to deal with some of this online stuff versus in person.

And really the best way I think to do it is to just practice it and get feedback from people about how you're coming across on camera and record yourself. That's a really good way to do it.

[00:14:19] Kelly Cherwin: I think that's great advice. I'm glad you brought that up and good question Andy. I actually was talking to someone last week, a search consultant who is doing a lot of interviews and she said that there is zero tolerance today for not knowing how to work Zoom.

I mean, obviously the beginning of the pandemic people are kind of fumbling around a little bit and you know, things happened, but I thought that was interesting. She said that is absolutely zero tolerance. If you don't know how to use Zoom, then the rest of the interview, you know, they might be questioning your not only technical abilities, but other abilities as well to be up to date on things. Yeah. So that's, that's great information that you're providing. Thank you.

[00:14:56] Andrew Hibel: I would say at this point, you need to view any sort of video [00:15:00] chat, like you view a desk, you can't really have an opinion on it. I really don't like Zoom, unfortunately, like your desk, it's gonna, it's gonna be a part of your work day no matter where you are nowadays. Yeah. And you can choose to have an opinion on it, but I don't think having an opinion that’s not favorable on something like Zoom at this point is going to advance your candidacy. In fact, I think it's something that's gonna be noted by somebody who's evaluating your candidacy so yeah, it's a different world. It's a, it's a tool that you use every day. It's not. A luxury or a preference like it may have been prior to March of 2020.

[00:15:36] Hallie Crawford: Or a possibility or an add-on. Yeah, and the thing too is you're not gonna be comfortable to your point if, if you started out not using Zoom, well, in the interview, you're gonna be fumbling and feel awkward the rest of the time.

So it doesn't reflect well on you anyway. But it's gonna be a big confidence hit, so to speak. So Zoom at a bare minimum and depending on if they're asking you to [00:16:00] use some other kind of software for let's say an upcoming interview or meeting or whatever it is, figure out how to get your hands on it in advance and practice with it so that you know where everything is and it's easy peasy.

[00:16:10] Andrew Hibel: I think that's great advice cuz I think each one of those platforms has its own unique works. And some are more reliable than others, but understand that colleges and universities sometimes mandate that this is the platform that needs to be used. So if you are a Zoom person and you love it, that's great. I get it. But if you're asked to go to something else, that's just kind of the way, uh, the world works nowadays and you kind of have to live with it whether you like it or not.

[00:16:37] Hallie Crawford: Yeah. And you can't say no, it's yes. And I'll be there and figure it out. Yeah.

[00:16:43] Kelly Cherwin: I love this conversation cause I feel like a lot of.

Is going back to your first original question that we asked you and your response was being proactive. And we keep talking about practicing and, and networking, and I think job seekers need to, to understand that being prepared and practicing and, you know, [00:17:00] trying to avoid the, being the reactive and, and rushing and, and stressed can really help them.

[00:17:04] Hallie Crawford: Yeah, it really does give yourself the time and space to do that. I know that we're all busy, but you'll kick yourself if you don't afterwards. That's what happens to people sometimes, is they'll contact us and say, well, you know, I've gone on a bunch of interviews and something's wrong.

It's not happening, and we figure out what was wrong. You know what they weren't doing quite as well. It's time well spent.

[00:17:30] Kelly Cherwin: Yeah, sometimes we learn the hard way from our mistakes. Huh. But hopefully people are not making those mistakes initially, so, well, the last question I have is regarding the title of your company, which I, which I love, and it's called Create Your Career Path.

I find it very inspirational. So I just wanted to, to ask you a little bit about that. It, it puts the ownership on the career seeker. So what are your thoughts on how people can discover and cultivate their own paths?

[00:17:54] Hallie Crawford: I love that question because I was very intentional, obviously, about naming my company because [00:18:00] we cannot just assume that our boss or employer or mentor or someone else is going to do everything for us.

Like we have to be intentional about designing our career. In a way and in the long run in a way that works for us and will achieve our goals and, you know, be fulfilling in everything else. And we like people to start almost with the end in mind and think about in an ideal world as best as you can. Cause we know for like newer career seekers or people that are new to academia, you might not know exactly where you wanna be in five years, 10 years, but at least give yourself some time to like think about that over time as you're learning more about yourself and our career model, thinking about those eight pieces of things to consider and look at other positions at the university that are higher up and like just observe what other people are doing and pay attention on meetings.

And what are some of the jobs that look appealing. [00:19:00] Some people that you might wanna emulate over time. So it's about being clear on your direction and getting clear over time if you don't know it exactly yet. But being intentional about that and then creating a plan to get there, which includes action steps to move towards that goal, but also how you're gonna overcome any obstacles that might get in your way.

What kind of classes or certification do you need to get and get some accountability for that too, because complacency is the enemy. Too many of us just kind of stay put in the same thing because it's scary to figure out that next step. And we do not want you to do

[00:19:37] Andrew Hibel: that. I love the title of your company.

I think you absolutely, absolutely nailed the process and probably the most important part is the ownership and the idea of being complacent here. You have to own it. But I also think the career path has become a very, very, very, ingrained part of the process and people need to have a long term [00:20:00] goal. You can't know where to go now if you don't know where you're going.

So I think we believe that that's extremely, extremely important for folks. But over the years, I've kind of found a place in between what that destination is, particularly for earlier stage folks, but even mid-career folks and where they are currently. And it actually all started when my oldest child was probably seven or eight, and she got inundated with all these questions.

Well, what do you want to be when you grow up? And she always used to answer it. I don't know. We'd have friends come back and say, hey, it's kind of concerning. She really doesn't have much direction. So at eight years old? eight years old, yeah. And we asked her like, hey, you don't know at all what you wanna do.

She was like well, what do you wanna do in your aid? I'm like, I wanna be an outfielder for Chicago White Sox. Of course. She goes, Yeah, you're not doing that, dad, so why am I supposed to know at eight what I'm supposed to do? [00:21:00] Which we thought was a fair question. So what I've tried to do over time and say there's some place in between.

Yeah. You need a sketch. Yeah, preferably in pencil. You can erase it, you can keep on modifying it, but that in between point of you gotta know where you're generally going, but don't think of it as such a firm and certain destination. But that's the best guess right now for folks who are having issues in their search because they have this path and it's not going what the path is saying. How do you help them take a look at the path? Let's do a little bit of a sketch here, what works for you now and let's try that. As opposed to feeling like you're not succeeding on what the path is.

[00:21:41] Hallie Crawford: Yeah. You have to be flexible with it because it's not always gonna happen in the timeline that you wanted to, and it may not happen in the way that you think it will either.

So, it's about having the plan and clarity as best as you can, but to your point. It's in pencil because just like life, we have to be [00:22:00] flexible and we may need to say, okay, it's not gonna happen in this way that I thought it was. So let me take a step back and what are some of my other options? Could I get there by taking a left turn instead of taking a right.

So that's where we want people to have their clarity as much as they can, but be flexible with it. And not so attached to exactly how it's gonna happen and when move in that direction, but be ready to course correct a little bit if needed, and understand that that's not because you did something wrong or something's wrong with you.

Life happens and covid happens and other things happen that might throw us off course a little bit. Just try to get back on course as best you can, but it may look different than you thought it would.

[00:22:45] Kelly Cherwin: That's great. And when you said life happens, that's exactly what I was going to say. And if any of my students are listening, I teach a project management class and finding a job is a project, and I tell them all the time that the project rarely goes exactly how you want it to, the [00:23:00] budget you want to the time. So it's okay if you go off track a little bit, just be flexible to get back on. Or another piece of advice is ask for help. It's okay if you might need a mentor or need your network to help you get back on that path.

So that's great advice. Thank you so much for sharing that.

[00:23:16] Andrew Hibel: And I probably would double down. If you're not flexible at that point where curve balls get thrown to you, I'm sticking with the baseball here cause it was the first job I wanted. When the curve balls are thrown to you, the more time you fret over the curve ball not identify it and not address how you need to be flexible is wasted time and wasted energy in accomplishing what the end goal is. Taking the time saying, oh, here's a curve ball. I gotta do something about it. Let's move on. Probably the number one question we've been asked throughout the podcast over the past year is, what do we do about internal candidates?

We keep coming back to what can you do about internal candidates? If there's an internal candidate that you don't know about. [00:24:00] How can you do anything different? And if you're going to try to evaluate each job to determine whether or not there's an internal candidate, you're gonna be spending a lot of time doing work that's not gonna affect that.

So I think that that, that's so darn important. There's one question I'm desperate to ask you that I think you're, you're going to have a really good, concise answer for, so I'm, I'm excited.

[00:24:24] Hallie Crawford: No pressure.

[00:24:25] Kelly Cherwin: I know you always set people up and they're like, ok, you're gonna love this question.

[00:24:29] Andrew Hibel: I kind of felt like when you didn't give us video initially, like there was a big wind up. I was expecting something very elaborate. And all this, but it actually, I love your background. So the question is, I think there's a lot of folks in higher education who've probably never worked with someone like you and maybe not even thought about working with somebody like you. What are the situations that you would say are ideal on where you feel you can [00:25:00] make the biggest difference in helping people understand the path that they're on and how to move forward on it?

[00:25:05] Hallie Crawford: Great question. Big picture. One major answer would be if you feel stuck or unsatisfied in any way, even if it's subtly, but you felt that way for a little while.

So it's not just current circumstance, maybe current project you're working on or whatever, but you felt stuck for more than, you know, six months give or take, and you just feel like you're spinning your wheels a little bit and not sure what to do. It's really good to talk to somebody about that because when you feel that way, our reaction, if you will, is usually to say, okay, I've gotta do something dramatic, or whatever it is.

And it's really good to have kind of a voice of reason to talk you through what actually needs to happen to help fix it. That was my concise answer.

Andrew Hibel: That was awesome.

[00:25:57] Kelly Cherwin: You're like, That's it. The end. Drop the mic.

[00:25:59] Andrew Hibel: Yeah. mic [00:26:00] has dropped. We're done.

[00:26:01] Kelly Cherwin: We don't have any fun.

Hallie Crawford: Did that answer though?

[00:26:03] Andrew Hibel: No, that's, that's perfect. Cause I, I, I honestly feel there's a lot of folks out there who, who have not even contemplated this. I also suspect there's gonna be a lot of folks out there who have felt stuck for six months and don't know what to do.

[00:26:16] Hallie Crawford: You just get bummed and then you're like, okay, I'll just stay, or you know, whatever. Ugh. Just a bad cycle.

[00:26:23] Andrew Hibel: Thank you for spending time with us today. Before we leave, do you have any final words of wisdom that you'd like to share with the folks who are listening?

[00:26:29] Hallie Crawford: Get out of your own way and remember that without risk, there is no reward. My favorite quote is, The greatest risk in life is not taking one in the first place. You don't wanna look back years later wondering where the time went.

[00:26:45] Kelly Cherwin: Thank you, Hallie, this has been a great conversation, so happy to have you here.

[00:26:49] Andrew Hibel: Thank you. Thank you for spending time with us. We really enjoyed speaking with you.

[00:26:53] Hallie Crawford: Me too. Thank you so much. You guys are really fun.

[00:26:56] Andrew Hibel: If you're listening today and you have questions or thoughts about today's podcast, [00:27:00] please reach us at podcast@higheredjobs.com or tweet us @HigherEdJobs and let us know what you're thinking. Thanks for listening.