Andy 0:04
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly 0:10
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy. Today we are lucky to have Emily Ladau with us. Emily is a passionate disability rights activist, writer, and communications and cultural access consultant. Her career began at the age of 10 when she appeared on multiple episodes of Sesame Street to educate about her life with a physical disability. Emily's writing has been published in outlets including The New York Times, CNN, Vice, and HuffPost, and her first book, Demystifying Disability, was published by Ten Speed Press, an imprint of Penguin Random House. She has spoken before numerous audiences from the U.S. Department of Education to the United Nations. Central to all of Emily's work is her belief that by sharing our stories and making the disability experience accessible to the world, we will reach a world that is accessible to the disability community. Thank you so much for joining us today, Emily.

Emily Ladau 0:58
Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be chatting with you.

Andy 1:02
We're so delighted to have you here today, Emily. I like to kind of start off with just a very basic general question. Hearing kind of your vision statement for your work, can you just share with the audience a little bit about your journey and what you think will be helpful for them to know about your journey as we talk today?

Emily Ladau 1:20
Yeah, absolutely. So I always start out by saying that if you are watching on video, what you're not able to see in this little screen is that I am a wheelchair user. And in addition to that, I have multiple non-apparent disabilities. So disability is very much a part of my life, part of who I am, part of how I proudly identify. And I am incredibly passionate about educating people about the disability experience and recognizing that it really is in many ways a two-way street to share my story and to invite people to meet me where they are so that we can have open conversations and dialogue about disability and demystify it and make it feel a little less intimidating and a little more approachable and accessible. So my friends and family like to joke that I am a professional disabled person -- just disability 24/7 around here -- but that's really because I can't take off my identity and put it on a shelf at night. It's something that has always been a part of who I am. And it's something that really informs the work that I do now. So I'm just always so excited to be able to have conversations with people who are seeking to engage about something no matter what part of the journey they're on.

Kelly 2:46
Thank you, Emily, so much for sharing your background. We appreciate that. So speaking about identity, I'm going go into our first question. So we often get questions from our professionals and job seekers. And actually this is one question from a listener that speaks to the personal side of professional identity. So the question from our listener is: How do I tell people that overcoming epilepsy and achieving what I have might be my greatest accomplishment in life? Or do I hide it like I always have? What are your thoughts on that, Emily?

Emily Ladau 3:14
This resonates with me really deeply and of course as I was just mentioning, I have a very apparent physical disability. And so my experience is definitely different than someone who has epilepsy, who may be able to mask or hide that disability. At the same time though, it's so crucial for me to say first of all, I don't want people to feel like they need to overcome a part of who they are. I want people to feel more like it is something that is within them that they can be proud of rather than something that they have to fight against. And so that's the first thing that I try to name for people when we talk about this narrative of overcoming because when I'm thinking about how I'm presenting myself to an employer, of course, you overcome barriers and you overcome obstacles. But at the same time, disability is an asset in many ways. It's not something that I have pushed past. It is something that I have succeeded while also having it as part of who I am. So I'm thinking about how to frame an answer like this. I want to recognize that any way of thinking about disability is valid and many people do think about it from the standpoint of overcoming. But what I think of it as if I've succeeded with this as part of who I am. And to hide that, to feel ashamed about that is something that we've been socialized to do. We've been told that that is what is expected of us -- to keep quiet, to downplay it. When I was younger, the biggest compliment that you could pay me was to say, "Oh, I forgot that you used a wheelchair" or "I don't think of you as disabled!" And it wasn't until later on in my life that I realized if you are downplaying or ignoring that part of me, you're not seeing all of me for the whole person that I am. And so I don't think that anything that I have done in my life is in spite of my disability, but rather because of who I am with it. And so my hope is that people will move beyond the sense that we need to suppress a part of ourselves and feel like we can, unapologetically, show up as our whole selves in the workplace or throughout the employment process. But of course, that goes back to things being a two-way street, because if you show up unapologetically, it's up to people in the workplace to meet you where you are and to show you that they welcome you as you are and to foster that inclusive culture. So I hope you won't hide, but I also can understand that we live in a world that has pushed us to do so.

Andy 6:23
Thank you, Emily. I think that's a great way to start this conversation because I think what it really forces us to think of is the two-way street of this whole process. There's only one part of that street that any job seeker can do, and particularly a job seeker with a disability can only control what they're presenting. And honestly, trying to meet the person on the other side of that conversation where they are is all you can try to do, which kind of gets us to our second question we've gotten. What can seasoned professionals with disabilities do to be recognized beyond their disability when applying for other roles in higher education?

Emily Ladau 7:06
Inasmuch as I want people to recognize disability as a part of a person and a natural part of the human experience, I also don't want to be reduced simply to my disability. And I think that that is what happens very often -- where someone with a disability who is applying for a role in any field, but especially in higher education, can end up being tokenized. There's this assumption that there's a very specific lane that a person needs to stay in based on their identity, and we ignore the fact that an identity can be an asset beyond simply the knowledge of that identity and that experience. It's about how we have learned to adapt, how we have learned to problem-solve, how we have learned to navigate. And so whenever I am presenting myself to someone for a job opportunity, I'm looking at my disability as a strength that I can use to sell myself. And from there, I see that as a jumping-off point for here's everything else that I have accomplished. Granted, I think I'm a bit of an interesting case because a lot of what I have accomplished in my life that I feel so fortunate to have done is directly connected to my disability. But I want people to understand that disability is not all that I am. There are other things that I am very, very passionate about. And I try to name and share those passions with people. For example, I am very passionate about editorial work and helping other people share their own stories. I am very passionate about messaging and how we shape it because how we think shapes how we talk and how we talk shapes how we think. So these are things that are not unique to me as a disabled person, but it's the fact that I am disabled that adds to those skills. So I ask for people to see that yes, disability has played a part in shaping my skills. But I am so much more than that. There is so much more that I enjoy, that I am passionate about, that I believe that I have come to be good at. And so when you're presenting yourself for a role, you don't need to downplay your disability, but you can push beyond that and you can say, yes, this is one part of what's made me who I am. But look at all of these other incredible skills that I've developed in part because of it and in part because of who I am as the rest of me.
Kelly 9:56
Thank you, Emily, for that. And that makes all perfect sense when you're having a conversation, say you're in an interview. But I'm going to flip to a question now that is a little more about writing. I know you referenced earlier about not being put in a specific lane. But this is from another listener regarding a disclosure question on an application. So what's your advice on how job seekers with disabilities navigate that optional disability disclosure question in applications, especially when they experience bias after requesting accommodations?

Emily Ladau 10:26
This is where it gets tricky. I understand why the inclination is to avoid answering the optional disclosure questions. My argument for answering it openly and honestly is: Do you really want to work in a workplace where you are going to be limited on the basis of not being free to be your whole self? Or do you really want to work in a workplace where they are not going to accept you fully for who you are? And I recognize that this is easier said than done. The job market is tough. Higher education is especially competitive when it comes to looking for roles. And I don't want people to feel like they are somehow betraying themselves if they aren't open about their disabilities. But at the same time, when the world is already so limiting, why would you put that limitation further onto yourself? And I recognize it's a privilege to be able to say that. Sometimes people do feel that the safest option for them is not to disclose. And if that's the case, I get it. But at the same time, if the opportunity is there and you feel safe to take that chance, take that chance. Because sometimes it will lead to a much richer and more robust process where you can get to know someone as you're applying for a job, where you can really create a connection, where you can feel like you are going to be welcomed and included and accommodated. And I recognize that all of the things I'm saying are talking about what would happen in the ideal scenario in the perfect world. So I very much acknowledge that it's a risk. And I don't think that the right answer is that you must disclose and answer that question 100% of the time. But I also hope that you will pause before you decide not to answer it. Because if you can't be authentically yourself to begin with, maybe that's not the place for you.

Andy 12:42
A quick follow-up to that. Is it a risk or is it a fact? And I'll explain a little bit. In the case of this, when you disclose something like a disability, insert whatever you think you don't necessarily want to disclose in an interview. If that fact is going to be apparent at some point in the process before or after being hired, that's going to be part of the relationship that you have with this organization -- whatever profession. It can be a college, it can be a corporation, it could be whatever. Think twice about that and think long and hard. Are you going to have to pretend to be somebody who you're not? If you're not a suit person, you kind of got to wear a suit in some instances. If you're really a Hawaiian shirt and flip-flops and shorts sort of person, you need to let that part of your personality show through even if you're wearing a suit. You need people to see who you are. That's who they're hiring. They're not hiring the person you're pretending to be. They're hiring you, and eventually, after spending 40 hours a week with you -- in my case with Kelly after 18 years -- I know who Kelly is. Whether or not she wants to disclose to me who she actually is, you kind of learn after a while. So I come back to the question: Is it a risk or is it a fact?

Emily Ladau 14:05
I love the framing of that. And I think it's a risk insofar as what I've always said is you can create a policy, but you can't legislate an attitude. And so when you are applying for a job, yes, there are legal protections in place, but we can't always account for the biases that come through in the application process. That being said, it is also, of course, a fact of your humanity. And I wish that that was the mental shift that we had -- where instead of being afraid of taking that initial risk because we're worried about getting in the door, we instead recognize that it's part of our reality. And if we continue to have to hide it, it's going to have an impact on the relationships with our colleagues, in the case of higher education on the relationships with students that we teach. It's going to impact our own mental health. So it's a risk insofar as biases happen, stigma happens and discrimination happens, but you're absolutely right. Disability is just a natural part of the human experience. And if we own that rather than try to push past it, I think that we're setting ourselves up for success in the long run, even if we meet some initial resistance while we're searching for a position.

Kelly 15:33
I want to build on the conversation here and go back to what you mentioned earlier, Emily, about wanting to work in an inclusive workplace, where you have that sense of belonging. And you mentioned -- and I think about this a lot -- that it's a two-way street in terms of they're interviewing you, but you are interviewing them. So you're right. If there are signals or if there's a gut feeling that this might not be the place, if you disclose it and there's some type of negative feedback, maybe it isn't the place for you. So I appreciate this conversation. I like your insight on that question.

Emily Ladau 16:07
I appreciate you naming too that it's possible that it might not be the right fit for you. As much as you are trying to bring your best self forward, if an employer doesn't see you as your best self as a disabled person, then they're not respecting the whole of what you have to offer. And beyond that, you're also setting yourself up for -- I don't want to say failure, but an uncomfortable situation -- when you might need accommodations either in the interview process or once you're in the working environment, but you've kept quiet about your identity and now you're almost springing it on the employer as a surprise. And that is 100% within your rights to do that. There is no required time at which you are supposed to disclose your disability. Accommodations don't have an expiration date. It's not a limited-time offer. But at the same time, why not set yourself up for success early on and right away if you have the opportunity to do so? Because if you don't have access to accommodations that you need in the interview process or very early on in the work process, it's going to become more difficult to acquire them when the urgency is already there. Instead, you can say, this is what I need so that I know that I will not reach a point where I'm experiencing difficulty because I want to be set up to thrive in this environment.
Andy 17:53
Thank you, Emily. The best podcast guest is the podcast guest who provides the segue to the next question in their answer to the previous one. So for that courtesy, I'm extremely grateful for that answer. This is yet another question I believe from a listener: Should applicants disclose accommodation needs upfront in a cover letter to avoid being ghosted after an interview? And I would kind of put my own editorial spin on that -- not just in a cover letter, but in any later stage after the cover letter too.

Emily Ladau 18:28
I think the challenge here is, first of all, if we're being very honest, is your cover letter getting the attention that it really needs in the interview process or in the vetting process? So if you feel like you want to disclose in a cover letter, sure, but the other option is to append it somewhere else in your application. Make sure that you're calling attention to it. I wouldn't want it to get lost in the fray of a cover letter because in the cover letter that's where you're selling yourself. And I'm not saying at all that it's to your detriment to name that you need accommodation. I just think that might not be exactly the place where you want to put that information. I think that that could be in the email that accompanies the application. It could be in an additional note. There could be an asterisk at the end of the resume. And maybe people who are more of an expert in this process would tell you otherwise. It's up to you, what you feel is right for the application process. But I do think that the key point of the question here is less about where do I put it -- what's the location of it in my job application -- and more so, do I name it at all upfront? And my answer is yes, name it upfront. Because if you can't even get an accommodation for the interview, how are you going to get through the interview successfully? If you're someone who requires captioning in order to successfully have a Zoom interview, but you didn't ask for captioning and now you're spending your interview struggling to navigate the conversation, you're not going to show up as your best self and you're not going to nail that interview in the same way that you would if you had just said, "I have a hearing disability. Could you please provide captioning for me during the interview?" So regardless of where you put that, whether it's the cover letter or an email or making a quick phone call, whatever the point of contact is for that, don't deny yourself the opportunity to set yourself up for the best possible interview. And if you get ghosted, as much as it feels like it's a reflection on you as the applicant, I promise you it is a reflection on the employer.

Andy 20:48
I would add to that that they just saved you a heck of a lot of time and energy to not waste on them.

Emily Ladau 20:54
Yeah.

Andy 20:54
If they're not willing to do anything and they ghost you on that, they just self-selected out as somebody who you want to work for. Hard stop. It's interesting -- this conversation and your vision. I just love your vision kind of that if people tell their stories just as you have over the past few minutes, that experience will make the world more accessible and therefore have an overall accessible world. Kind of the idea that real change is incremental, and every little story that we do lays down a brick on that path to true accessibility. I mean, I have to be honest. I am disabled. I don't have to worry about it with my role in our organization.

And it's been a while since I've interviewed, but I interviewed a lot before I started the company. I had a good number of jobs and I know what that is. And my physical disability is in both of my hands. With one of my hands, I was born without a thumb and I had 20 surgeries growing up to have a thumb made -- and it happens to be my right hand. And society happens to think the proper greeting with the right hand when you see somebody is to shake the other person's right hand. To me, that's always the moment of truth. Are they going to notice my disability? Because unlike you, I can stick my hand in my pocket and kind of get away with it. Now, if I'm wearing a short-sleeve shirt, you're going to notice something on my arm. Perhaps people might take second looks. I definitely get questions in the grocery line from curious adults and inquisitive kids, which I answer all the time. Because I never know if they have somebody they know who has a similar disability, who they might learn something from me that would help them. Most of the time, actually, I'd say the answer is yes, they do. But I also have had the privilege, if you will, to kind of be able to stick my hand in my pocket. But the handshake -- I can't avoid. And it happens in every face-to-face meeting. And you know what, you come in with a fist pump or high five or something in a business meeting to start off a relationship, it's kind of like wearing the Hawaiian shirt and shorts to an interview. So I very much can relate to that.

But there was a point in my life -- it was high school and we were finishing up the surgeries and my thumb needed to be longer. And they had to do a two-step surgery where they broke the bone in my right thumb and they put a device in that had six pins and you would turn some of the pins and it would elongate my thumb over a period of time. And then they'd pop a bone back in there, take the pins out, and everything would be perfect again. Well, things don't always go as planned with hand surgeries, and the skin became really thin. So they had to surgically attach my hand to my lower stomach. And it happened to be the summer I turned 16, in between my sophomore and junior years, and I had to go to school with my right hand surgically attached to my stomach. Which, as a young boy and as a junior in high school, there was no worse fate than drawing attention to myself with that. I couldn't bathe. I couldn't do barely anything. God help me, they hadn't invented Velcro shoes at the time. So if my shoes got untied, I was not going to ask a classmate. I had to ask a teacher. And I was suddenly forced into a place where I couldn't hide my disability. And it was a matter of months that way until it went back to the way I was used to and somewhat comfortable with. But it was a real eye-opener for me in trying to be comfortable in talking about my disability and disclosing it. I really think that that time -- being the summer I turned 16 and then starting high school again as a junior -- really affected when I went into job interviews.

I definitely knew there was a risk, and I acknowledged it, but I thought the risk of not addressing it and not being true to myself and not being proudly who I was -- it was worth it. It was going to help me self-select out the places I should have. And as I look back on it, I'd like to think of it as confidence. Maybe it was overconfidence, but it projected a confidence at a younger age doing what I did, which was working with high-wealth older donors for colleges, universities and nonprofits. It gave me an advantage at that point in putting myself out that way.

So I add all that about telling my story, and I would ask you: When somebody like me comes to you and says, "How do I get out?" -- I had asked Emily before we started how I should tell my story and she said, "However you feel comfortable." But when somebody like me, who doesn't tell their story all that often -- I've told it before in this podcast and other podcasts, but I don't tell it very regularly -- what do you say to people to encourage people who are like you and me to tell those stories? Because I do believe in your vision and I want to lay as many bricks as I can on that path. What do you say to them?

Emily Ladau 26:21
Well, first of all, I'm really glad that you shared your story. And it resonates with me on a deeply personal level because I had major surgery in high school and then I ended up missing a few months of school. I was home and being taught in my home environment until I recovered enough to go back to school. And when I got back to school I had to navigate that. And so, you know, you learn very early on in your life when you have a disability how to navigate some of these more challenging scenarios. And then, of course, you have a story to tell.

I always say there are more than 1 billion people around the world with some type of disability, and that means that you are going to have more than a billion experiences and opinions and thoughts on what it means to have a disability. There are no two people who share exactly the same experience. And that's why sharing your story is so important.

But I also often have people say to me either, "I don't know where to start" or "I don't want to share my story" or "I don't feel I should have to share my story." And to that I always say nobody owes anybody their story, and you alone are not responsible for the weight of educating every single person that you meet. At the same time, I can't assume that you have an understanding of who I am as a person if I haven't offered some of that information to you. And so it's about finding that equilibrium for yourself of some things belong just to me and some things I feel comfortable sharing with people.

Of course, that means that the person you are sharing with has to show that they are receptive, that they are welcoming. So again, it goes back to that narrative of the two-way street.

But when I'm thinking about how to encourage someone to share their story, to me it's about first reminding them: You are allowed to take up space, and you are allowed to show up exactly as you are. Because society gives people with disabilities the exact opposite message. So often we're told: Hide it. Downplay it. Ignore it. Don't think about it. Make yourself small. And I'm still learning this even as somebody who loudly and proudly speaks about being a disabled woman all the time. There are moments where I feel like, who am I to share my story? And who am I to take up space in the world right now? But the reality is that if you don't share your story, then who will? Why not be your own best advocate? Why not be the person who cares enough for yourself to want to open up to people in the world?

It's not going to be easy, and some people are not going to be receptive. But I also think that more often than not, you will find that by sharing your story, you are bridging the gaps that you have been feeling for so long and opening up new pathways and new opportunities for yourself. So yeah, it's scary. And yeah, it's hard to own the parts of yourself that feel messy or feel different in some way. But it's also, I think, the most worthwhile and rewarding thing that you can do to not deny yourself that opportunity to share more about who you are.

Because even just now, in you willingly sharing part of your story with all of us, we have found another point of connection -- another point of similarity in terms of what our lives were like as we were growing up. And it's true that not everybody is going to have that same point of connection, but you've still created the opportunity for that connection to happen.

Andy 30:55
Thank you. I'm glad I did, at your encouragement, share the story and that the shared humanity that we both have actually may overlap in this area. But we talked a little bit beforehand -- there are many other ways that we define ourselves outside of our disabilities, of who we are. And I think one of the things that I've loved in the post-ADA world is that we've moved from "disabled persons" to "persons with disabilities." And you can put comments after the word "disability," or even before the word "disability" if you want to. We're all people, and we all have different things that define us and are part of our identity.

Being comfortable with who they are and being understanding -- and in some places where we get mixed messages, being forgiving. I have just as much control over whether or not I was disabled as I do over whether or not I have gray hair. There's no difference whatsoever.

And I also think I want to add something here for folks who might be listening who were not born with their disabilities and have lived with them their entire life. I know there are unique challenges for people who became disabled after being fully abled, or quote unquote, fully abled. I know those are unique. And don't think for a moment that when somebody who has a more recent disability in their life -- I come across particularly somebody with a recent hand disability, somebody who's lost a finger -- talks to me about how to button a dress shirt, those are things that are real struggles for people. It's a real change in life. And if you had it and you've lost it, it has its own unique set of circumstances. So I just kind of wanted to make sure we added that at the end -- that they come in all different shapes and forms and sizes, and understanding that everybody's journey is their own.

Emily Ladau 33:00
Yeah, and everybody's at a different point on that journey. And I know that there are days where I am not quite as enthusiastic about embracing my disability as I wish that everybody was. And so I can't expect that everybody else is always going to be enthusiastic about it. But because we've been taught to think about disability in a negative light, when somebody becomes disabled, it does become more challenging to embrace that part of themselves.

And what if we flipped that script and instead just recognized how normal it is to have a disability? One in four people in the U.S. have some type of disability. That's not a niche number, right? We say that we are a marginalized community, and it's true. But we are the world's largest minority. And so when you look at it from that perspective, why not set up the world -- careers, whatever sector you are a part of -- to make it so that if you're the person who becomes disabled tomorrow, it's still a place that you would feel welcome and want to be.

Andy 34:12
Thank you so very much, Emily, for spending time with us today. I think that's a lovely way to just put it in a place where I think everybody can relate to.

Kelly 34:21
Thank you, Emily. I've really enjoyed this conversation. This is definitely one of my favorite podcast conversations. So thank you so much for your insights, sharing your story, and just being here.

Emily Ladau 34:31
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Andy 34:34
This is normally the place where we ask people to send questions or thoughts or reflections about the podcast to podcast@HigherEdJobs.com
or send us a direct message on X @HigherEdCareers. But I also encourage people, if you're listening to the podcast and you want to share your story with us, what I can promise you is we're going to forward all of those along to Emily if that's OK with you, Emily.

Emily Ladau 34:57
100%.

Andy 34:58
So, please share your story with us if you're so inclined, if you're listening. And understand, if you haven't shared your story before, it's a great first step to share it in an email and letting us know and sharing with people if that's the first step you need to take. Thanks again, Emily. We look forward to talking again real soon.

Emily Ladau 35:16
Thank you. Thank you so much.

Andy 35:18
And thank you for listening. We really hope that you've enjoyed this podcast and hope that it's brought some more attention to such a worthy, worthy thought.