Andy Hibel 0:02
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs Podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Monika Sziron 0:08
And I'm Monika Sziron an assistant director of editorial strategy at HigherEdJobs. Today we have Annmarie Caño, a professor of psychology at Gonzaga University, where she formerly served as dean of the College of Arts and Sciences. She's also a licensed clinical psychologist and a certified coach who supports academic leaders who wish to cultivate healthier and more inclusive work environments. And today, we're really excited to have you here, Dr. Caño, because we are going to be talking about the topic going from peer to supervisor and how you maintain your work relationships while doing your new job and moving up to that supervisor position and to get us kicked off, we'd love to hear from you. Can you tell us a little bit about you and your career path and your story that you can kind of set the table for us?

Annmarie Caño 0:55
Sure. And thank you so much for having me here today to talk about this. So I started my academic career as a so-called trailing spouse. And I think that's important because sometimes people think that when you start an academic career, you have to start fresh, especially as a faculty member, as a tenured assistant professor or tenure track assistant professor. So I started as a lecturer with an unstable employment package and did that for two years before then, applying for a tenure track assistant professor positions and ended up getting a job at a nearby institution. But then after one year of doing my job, getting recruited back at the institution where I was a lecturer. And so I professionally grew up at an hour one public urban institution in the Midwest, and never really thought about a career as an administrator or any kind of leader in that respect. I really thought, I'm going to be a research leader. But along the way, I ended up participating in a lot of committees, and people realized that I was relatively easy to get along with and to work with. And I actually got things done. So I started to get tapped for different leadership positions, including associate chair of my department, which was about 35 faculty and six staff and 1200 undergraduate majors and a graduate program that was pretty large. And then after that, getting tapped for an associate dean of a graduate school, and then after that, getting tapped for associate provost in charge of faculty and staff development for the whole entire university. And it was through that that I got to see what it's like to be once upon a time, a peer and then becoming a leader and sometimes a boss of other people or a supervisor and having to dance that dance. And then after that, I left the university to become dean of the College of Arts and Sciences at Gonzaga. And I started that position at the height of the pandemic and did that for three years. And then decided that there were some other projects that I wanted to dedicate my full time to, and then returned to faculty at this institution where I'd never been faculty before. So I've had some different kinds of experiences I'd be happy to share a little bit more about.

Andy Hibel 3:22
Thank you so much. That's such an interesting path. And that last little bit right at the end, maybe we should have renamed the episode from peer to supervisor back to peer, because that's also that's an interesting change of gears as well. Particularly what I would probably say is like a truly active and engaged peer. There are lots of deans who, at the end of their deanship, will go on the faculty, but in a slightly lower gear than what they would have been beforehand. It sounds like you actually went back in the same gear that you went into being a dean. You went basically right back to where you were faculty. Is that correct? That's what it sounds like.

Annmarie Caño 4:02
Yes. And in going back to faculty, I had some new interests that I was able to pursue that were not part of my research career before. So I would say I have the same energy and maybe some renewed energy to explore new topics and try out some new things, which has been pretty fun and exciting for me.

Andy Hibel 4:23
That's great. I think being appointed to become a chair or dean is a great career accomplishment, but it can come with some tricky changes to your relationships with colleagues. If you've been part of a department for a long time or even new to the institution like you were. What advice do you have for those who may be in this situation and maybe kind of looking at from both sides: One, you've been a part of the department, but also maybe you have some professional relationships, but may actually be new to the college. Is there a difference between those two?

Annmarie Caño 4:55
Sure. My advice probably centers on remembering who you are no matter what role you have or what title is underneath your name, and realizing that even though you are the same person, whether you are rising into a leadership position at your current institution or moving to a completely new institution, other people may not see you the same way. So within an institution, when your role changes, even though you feel like you're the same person, the power dynamics are changing and whether you like it or not, people will look at you in a different way, appreciating that now you have authority to make decisions that will impact them. And recognizing that shift, I think really important as you move forward and make decisions. Listen to people kind of move about these spaces where people once saw you one way and now you will be different to them, even if you feel like you are not. And I think especially when I'm coaching new leaders who are moving into positions within their institutions, that comes as a shock that, well, that I'm the same person. I don't know why they're treating me differently or they're maybe more differential or even more oppositional. I'm still the same person. And it's like, yes, you are the same person and you know you're the same person. But this added position of authority creates a different dynamic. So I think recognizing that and just accepting it is a big part of taking on leadership roles when you're at the same institution and then when you're coming from another institution and recognizing that people don't know who you are. I spent 20 years at one place where I knew a lot of people. They knew who I was, they knew how I operated and at the new institution, especially during COVID, where I couldn't meet people in person, I had to go the extra mile to show people who I was like, What are my values? What drives me, why I care, and why I wanted to be at this new place leading this new group of people. So I think that balancing that position authority that you now have with who you are as a person is, is big for new leaders.

Andy Hibel 7:14
It seems like the expectations that leaders may have of themselves in this position, i.e. you're trying to remain true to yourself and be the person that you are that got you there. And what shifts on the other side is it seems like the expectations that people have of you seem to change overnight.

Annmarie Caño 7:33
Oh, yes. Yes.

Andy Hibel 7:35
How much -- either in your experience or working from your coaching experience -- do you see people grappling with that other side of understanding what those new expectations are for them and being able to live up to them? And does it seem as a shock for a good number of people that there's this whole new set of expectations for them that they're accountable for? They need to be transparent about and as they try to lead an organization and make good decisions for the organization and the people that they serve, that they're able to do that in a fashion that's consistent and meets the expectations of those new peers.

Annmarie Caño 8:13
Yeah, I think part of the part of the issue is sometimes we go into these roles, we look at our job duties or essential functions, or our own supervisor tells us "Here's what I expect from you," and we forget about the relationships that we have that enable us to do our jobs well and to carry out these tasks that are in front of us or the vision that's in front of us. So that part, I think once you realize that, that my relationships have changed or I have new relationships, I have to approach them differently. That unlocks a lot of possibilities for people in terms of how to get their work done. It's not just a list of tasks or job duties or goals or initiatives that need to be accomplished, but that I need to do this with other people, recognizing that they see me in a different way maybe than how I see myself or how they have seen me before, or how they've interacted with me before. So one of the things that sometimes happens is new leaders who move into spaces within their institutions where they had relationships with people already may continue to rely on the same sources of support, including emotional support, like venting about frustrating situations, not realizing that they are no longer peers with this person, and that when they vent as a leader, they may actually be undermining some of their goals or some of the work that they're doing or some of the relationships because the person who is now I'm going to use the word subordinate or direct report may not know what to do with that venting. Like, am I supposed to support you unconditionally? Am I supposed to keep this confidential? It's like too much information and can undermine their work as well as your relationship now, in this supervisor role. And sometimes the direct reports can feel like it's manipulative, like this person's gossiping because they want me on their side and it makes people feel uncomfortable. So like that, that would be a concrete situation of in this case, when someone moves into a role with authority, that they find people who are now their peers or find a coach or somebody else with whom they can vent, because of course you're going to experience frustrations as a leader, but that we're a little bit more careful about who we do that with because our relationships have changed. So that's like a concrete shift that I think is helpful for leaders to make. And along with that is also being more careful about issues of confidentiality and transparency. So again, former peers with whom you were close may expect you to spill the tea about what's happening, about like what's happening at this level. And I remember getting questions like that too. And people are curious. And when there's an information vacuum, they want information. And if you're a trusted source of information, they come to you. But it may not be appropriate for you to share that information. So figuring out like when is it transparent communication and when is it gossip or when is it something that I have to keep confidential or is privileged communications that becomes more important as you progress into some of these leadership roles, especially if it's within an institution that you've worked for a long time.

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Monika Sziron 12:03
I want to jump into a question going back to expectations. What is an unexpected role or task of being in a higher ed supervisory role that you were not expecting when you took on your leadership positions or that you've had to coach others through? And how did it impact your relationships? I think a lot of times, like you said, we read a job description and you think I'm going into this leadership role and I have these tasks and these duties. But what's something that maybe came up that was unexpected that other leaders might experience as well.

Annmarie Caño 12:33
For mid-level leaders one of the most surprising tasks I had was learning how to be a translator between upper administration and faculty and staff. And I think this is very common for anyone who is in a mid-level role. Directors, department chairs, deans, associate provost, everyone kind of in that middle section, because sometimes they're directives or information sharing that comes from the top that people don't know how to act upon or if they should act upon, or what was the purpose of this communication, and especially during COVID, that became something that I practiced and learned through experience. So there would be -- I think a lot of people experience this -- a long email from central administration about "here are all the precautions we're taking. Here's everything that we're doing." Whenever there's a crisis, this kind of communication happens and it's understandable that there's a lot of information in those messages because they're trying to make sure that everybody has what they need. But for the person on the ground, it's really hard to know how to distill that information or which is the most important part of this information. So I became the person who would read that email and then write my own email or like at a meeting, be able to translate and say, Here are the three things you need to know from that message. Read the whole thing, of course. But here's three things that you need to do right now, or here's something you need to do next week. And I think that that actually was a big relationship builder for me and the faculty and staff because they learned to trust that I would help clarify what was going on in a very noisy, chaotic time. And that also meant that I had to take the perspective of the people who are trying to do their best work during a very stressful time. And that also means you have to take the time to do that. You have to take the time as a leader to listen to where the pain points are for your people, what is stressful to them, and then tailor your messages or be able to explain things in a way that makes sense without watering down the message or without dismissing the original messenger. All of that. So it's a combination of a number of different skills, but a lot of it is about accompanying your people and being an empathic leader and getting that information that they needed. That was not something that I expected as a new dean, but it is something that I have used since then. I mean, it's a really transferable skill for a leader, whether you're in the classroom and no matter what level of leadership you're in.

Andy Hibel 15:29
I love the whole answer. But the emphasis on that last point, I think it's always easy to look at the top of the org chart and say, well, that's where it all ends. But really at the top of the org chart, that leader is also needing to listen to a lot of disparate constituencies and oftentimes having to pick and choose a little bit from each, but never fully satisfying everybody. But giving an honest lesson to try to make the best overall decision. But that accountability and transparency never disappears from good leadership. It's always there to the constituents is whether it's your employees or outside constituencies or various internal ones to do so. I love that you didn't dismiss the top of the org chart from that. So thank you. Yeah. Do you think there's a different way of navigating relationships for those who've been appointed as a mandatory rotating chair versus those who have applied for it on their own?

Annmarie Caño 16:25
I do think there's some big differences there, and it also depends on the department and university culture. In a rotation culture, as a new leader, you may be given more slack and people might be more willing to support you even when you're making no one decisions because they know like not necessarily that you're forced a position, but that you're taking one for the team by serving as chair for three or five years. But when you actively apply for a leadership role, some of your peers might feel threatened by that, especially in... serving as an administrator is seen as going to the dark side. Like, why does this person want to be going to the dark side? Or why do they want to separate from us? Because sometimes there's that idea that you're no longer faculty, that you've chosen to turn your back on the faculty, even though a lot of people, they go into leadership because they want to help and they want to make the environment better. But there's still this idea or this institutional culture in some places where it's choosing to go to a leadership role rather than just being tapped for it has a different meaning for other people. So in that case, you may need be more intentional about communicating your reasons for wanting to lead. Like I'm throwing my hat in the ring or I'm applying for this because there are some systemic challenges that we're all experiencing and I'd like to help fix it and make it better. Or I'd like to elevate your voices in being able to change something so that we can all have a better academic environment and we can serve our students better, whatever it might be. But that service-minded reason, if it's true, is, I think, an important way to communicate why you're choosing to apply for a leadership role within the Department, especially when people are suspicious of leadership.

Andy Hibel 18:23
Thank you. And I like the little caveat there -- if it's true.

Annmarie Caño 18:27
Yes.

Andy Hibel 18:28
I would say if you're saying that it's about service and it's not true and I'm speaking from more of a candidate perspective, I think your expectations of what the experience is going to be for you is going to be falling far short of what the reality of the situation is. If you're saying that this is about service and you're doing it for whatever reason, doesn't even think it makes it sound like it's a nefarious reason, it could be a good reason. But if you're saying it's about service and it's not really, you're going to find yourself in a position that's just going to feel consistently uncomfortable.

Annmarie Caño 19:04
Yes.

Andy Hibel 19:06
I've seen that a good number of times from candidates who are like, well, that's what you say when you're trying to advocate for a position. Now, I think when you're advocating position, starting with transparency there, if it's more that, hey, I'd love to be here to serve, but we have a budget crisis that is so dire that if I don't come in here and try to solve the budget crisis, we're going to lose the department. Don't know what. That's a different expectation to come in with. And if that's what's needed, just tell people that's why you're doing it.

Annmarie Caño 19:38
Yeah. And even that explanation is service-minded because you're saying like, I want to preserve your jobs and I want to preserve the discipline at this institution that students will get to learn from. But I think really knowing why. Like, what are your reasons for going up for this position? It's really important for yourself, but also in how you communicate it. And it will also guide how you negotiate with the dean or whoever it might be for this job and what you ask for to support your work. And it will also guide the kind of work that you do and your fortitude or longevity. So if you go into the role, because I'm going to do this because people said that this is how you get to be a dean, or I'm doing this as a step stone, or I'm doing this because the next step on the ladder to get more power and authority, and that's your main reason. I don't know how sustainable that is.

Monika Sziron 20:38
Well, I want to pick your brain on the buzzword that's currently kind of flying around right now, and that's collaboration. And we've been told in a variety of capacities, in a variety of different fields in higher ed, we have to work together. We have to be more collaborative. But we know that sometimes that doesn't always work, right? There's sometimes collaboration that like butts heads or someone goes to their supervisor looking to collaborate and they kind of shut it down. Or they say, well, we don't have time for that. We don't have budget for that. We don't have, you know, X, Y or Z. So I feel like that has a lot to do with the constructive relationships that you've really advocated for throughout your career. So how do you feel at this day and age when we're really pushing for collaboration and working together in different teams and fields? How can this peer supervisor relationship be more constructive and healthy and inclusive from your work and from your perspective?

Annmarie Caño 21:32
Sometimes when people use the word collaboration, they make it sound like we're all holding hands and we're all agreeing all the time on the vision, on how to achieve the vision on the projects. That's not my vision of collaboration. Collaboration and constructive relationships means that you will have disagreement because you're bringing all these different ideas, all these different people with different life experiences to the table. That's what's beautiful about collaboration. And as a leader, that means you need to have the skills to be able to manage not only the differences of opinion, but also the emotions that come up as people are sharing their different ideas, because for some people their idea is wrapped up completely in their identity also. And as a dean, I've seen that sometimes in certain disciplines people hold on to a certain way of knowing or a certain way of doing things, or thinking about a topic where it's really hard to collaborate with other people because they're coming from a just a different way of doing things or a different way of knowing. So a scientist uses a scientific method and an artist may use a different way of knowing. And how do you get these two people to understand the beauty that each one brings to the problem at hand and it could be hiring, it could be curriculum development. I mean, it could be so many different things. So in my opinion, it means the leader has to be able to lead from a place of accompaniment. I use this word a lot in Latin American liberation Praxis. It's called accompaño miento, which means that you're entering into the struggle with your people. And that means if you're a leader who's practicing accompaniment, you're not just around the table listening to people and directing the action, but you're actually living their situation with them. And I think about budget cuts like Andy talked about earlier. This is it's a very stressful time in higher education for a number of reasons. And I have seen some leaders who take a more distant view of their leadership, like I'm going to kind of send these impersonal missives occasionally to people or let them know that I vaguely support them. But then people are floundering in their labs or in their workspaces in the classroom. They're like, we feel so distracted. So a leader who's practicing accompaniment tries to as much as they can, even though they have this positional authority to feel what their people are feeling, and that means in collaboration, thinking about what solutions do, quote unquote, my people have about whatever challenge is at hand, and maybe it's strategic planning, maybe it's budgeting, maybe it's a hiring freeze. In all likelihood, your faculty and staff already have some solutions. And if you're not listening, you're not being a collaborative leader in that respect. So how do you surface all those solutions? It's messy because people's solutions will not necessarily be compatible with each other, but through that dialogue and collaborative approach, you get a little closer to a more creative solution that might not even be readily apparent. So that's why I think the collaboration is really it means that the leader is entering into the collaboration, not just directing the collaboration.

Monika Sziron 25:13
I love that. I think that's something that not everyone is experiencing at the moment, especially with the buzzword like collaboration is coming from the top down and saying, you know, you teams, you figure it out. But I love that. I love that whole concept of accompaniment. That's amazing.

Andy Hibel 25:28
We often close the show with a question about what's your best advice for job seekers about finding a new job or people who are interested in this career. But I actually like to tailor it a little bit to you. How in the early stage of your faculty career, if you have interest in this, how do you start? Like this is like muscles that you're building up. How do you start working out early on in your career and getting some of the experience that you kind of wire yourself in this way? So by the time these opportunities are there, you have a good amount of workouts and you're pretty strong in these skills. It seemed like that happened naturally for you. But if somebody who said this doesn't happen as naturally for me, I want to learn how to better be oriented in this way to make this transition easier for me at the point that I hope to make it. What could people be doing early in their career to do that?

Annmarie Caño 26:22
I'm going to put a plug in for networking, however you can. So that means if there are disciplinary conferences or conventions that you regularly go to or attend, being courageous and talking to people who you might have read their work before or you really admire their models or their leadership and just introducing yourself and making new friends that way. I think being able to put yourself out at conferences is one or getting other people to introduce you to people. If you don't feel comfortable being the one to do that. I was the one who would like cold email people or just go up to people and my palms would be sweaty and I'd be all nervous. But I would try to remember like this person was early in their career wants to. It's not like they just poof, you know, appeared in this leadership role. And most of the time I'd say 99% of the time, whoever I approached was just tickled that I came up and asked a question or said like, I really admire your work. Can we keep in touch? LinkedIn is great for that. Also, again, a great place. Like people kind of expect you to just connect with them. Send a little message. I have met some amazing early career scholars through LinkedIn and other social outlets because they reached out to me and sometimes I reach out to them because I want to learn from them also. So I think being open to developing new relationships beyond your institution is really helpful. And then think about all early career mid-career faculty and staff get asked to be on committees and as much as you can to try to choose committees that align with your values and the things that you think are important so that you can contribute in a meaningful way and build your skills at the same time. So I think those two sorts of activities are easy to build in to a very busy early career time, but set the stage in the foundation for later professional development.

Andy Hibel 28:32
It sounds like you just you just had two new podcasts that we should have you back on for with what those suggestions because like, those are just so spot on as far as where if you're placing your professional development energy into where your return on your investments are, they're not only going to be professionally good, they're going to be personally satisfying and make you enjoy the journey that you're on in your career in a completely different way. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I really appreciate you being on. This has been a wonderful experience to be able to sit with you and get some just amazingly solid and thoughtful guidance on how to navigate a very difficult professional track, if you will. If you have questions for Annmarie or thoughts or comments or if you want to connect with her on LinkedIn, please feel free to do so. But if you have questions or comments or thoughts or maybe exploring other podcast ideas for us, please feel free to reach out to us. We really do like hearing from you at podcast@HigherEdJobs.com or feel free to send us a direct message on X @higheredcareers. And we really appreciate you being here today. Thank you very. Much.

Annmarie Caño 29:42
Thank you.

Monika Sziron 29:43
Thank you, Annmarie.

Andy Hibel 29:44
And thank you for listening. And we look forward to talking with you real soon.