Andy Hibel 0:02
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly Cherwin 0:08
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy. Today, we're going to be discussing what does it take for university staff to thrive. And we're welcoming Dr. Laurie Shriner. Laurie is a professor of higher education at Azusa Pacific University in Southern California. She has spent 40 years in higher education as a psychology professor and is the author of The Thriving Quotient, which shows how university students and staff can feel meaningfully engaged, energized, productive and supported. Dr. Schreiner has published numerous journal articles and book chapters on Thriving, positive Psychology, Engaged Learning, Sophomore success, faculty development and Advising. Welcome, Dr. Schreiner. We're so happy to have you here.

Laurie Schreiner 0:47
Thank you. It's my pleasure.

Kelly Cherwin 0:49
You wrote an article for us, along with some co-authors from multiple universities, regarding what it takes for university staff to thrive. And it really resonated with our audience. So we're excited to have this conversation. So you shared in that article the definition of thriving stems from the field of positive psychology and Martin Seligman's definition of flourishing. Could you talk a bit more about that? What should university staff look for as keys to thriving in the workplace?

Laurie Schreiner 1:14
Well, my background is in psychology. I'm a psychologist by training. And so positive psychology has really expanded the ways we think about what it means to be human and to live a good life and in the context of work, what it means to to really come alive to your potential and to, as Marty Seligman would say, flourish in that kind of environment. And so the viewpoint of positive psychology really comes at it from a position of strength of what kinds of environments can we create that will help people be meaningfully engaged in their work life, but also experiencing positive emotions and being involved in healthy relationships with other people and feeling a sense of accomplishment about what they're doing. So that is the the attack that comes from positive psychology is rather than saying what's wrong with environments or what's wrong with people or where is there a mismatch instead of that deficit based approach, which is what all of us are sometimes prone to do, is to think about what's wrong. Positive psychology really comes in and says, Well, what would it take for things to be right? What would that look like? And so that really intrigued me as a psychologist, as I thought about the work environment for staff and for faculty as well. Although my work started with students, which we can talk about in a little bit, but as we think about staff thriving, it really comes down to do they feel that what they're doing matters, that they're meaningful, engaged in work that's fulfilling, that they feel like what they do makes a difference in students lives. But also, are they able to do work that doesn't interfere with their well-being? So a sense of well-being is part of thriving, and that is, I feel good about myself and relationship to the people that I'm working with. I'm not frustrated or overwhelmed by all the demands. I feel like I'm able to live the kind of life that I want to live. So I look forward to going to work and my work life. Although balance is probably not the right word for that, it's more of an ebb and flow, probably. There's a feeling that life is pretty good and we want our staff to feel that way when they come to work with us.

Kelly Cherwin 3:45
Great. Thank you.

Andy Hibel 3:46
Lori. Thank you for sharing some of those thoughts about university staff. One of the things I think is interesting as we look at this is when university staff actually start looking for a job, how will they be best able to judge if this is a place where they can find meaning in their work and, as Dr. Siegelman says, flourish in what they do?

Laurie Schreiner 4:10
Well, that's always a great question, is how do you know what you're walking into? And certainly there are some ways that you can investigate the environment ahead of time. And look at what former job applicants or current employees say. You can usually Google those things and find some some of those things out. But the other thing I would suggest is that when you walk on campus, assuming you've made it that far, that you're actually going to have that interview. Look at where you'd be working. What is that office like? What does it feel like? What's the vibe, if you will, as you walk into that space? Does it give you a sense of energy? You know, one of the things about thriving is that we're energized by what we're doing. And so that energy and engagement, you should be able to feel it. It really is a palpable part of an environment. You can tell if people have their heads down and are just doing their own work. That's a very different environment from where you're noticed, where you're welcomed, where people are curious about you and maintaining eye contact with you and asking you more about yourself as part of that interview process. But I would certainly make sure that you're talking to more than the search committee, if that's possible. If you could just hang out even after the interview is done, go to lunch on campus, walk around you can tell, and how people, even students, hold themselves and the energy with which they're going through their day. And as you walk through the halls or pass by offices or have lunch on campus, I think there is a feeling that certainly I feel it as I go and I visit a lot of institutions as part of my work on Thriving. You feel it when you walk on campus and it's in the language that people use. It's in the way they're curious about you and the energy that they they have as they're going through their day.

Andy Hibel 6:18
Quick follow up to that, because if you are looking for a job and you currently have one and let's say you're thriving in it. Now, you're finding other positions that you feel you may thrive in. Is it sometimes harder to feel like you're thriving where you currently are as you start looking at other positions?

Laurie Schreiner 6:36
Well, that that comparison factor, often the grass may seem greener. You're searching for a new job, and certainly any time you're comparing where you are to something you don't yet know, it may sound more attractive as as you're comparing it. And you might think, well, I could be better off somewhere else. I think you've got to look at the whole picture and to just say, How do you see yourself day to day working in that space? And, you know, one of the things that we've found and actually the research began with Laurie Santos's work about time of famine is that about 80% of workers in the US feel like they don't have the time they really need to do their jobs. And when you're feeling really overwhelmed by work and that's par for the course right now in higher education, I think as we've emerged from COVID and we've faced a lot of financial constraints and a lot of staffing changes, a lot of turnover, we've lost a lot of staff. I think there's a tendency for staff to be asked to do more with less. And so that may be what many staff are feeling right now in their current positions is I'm actually covering for not just my job, but maybe one or two other positions that have been lost in this office. And the research that Laurie Santos has done shows that when you feel this time of famine, it is the same emotion as if you were unemployed. It is that much of a drain on your mental health. And so when you're feeling that way, anything else can look good, right? And so you've got to that would be some questions I would be asking as I go into the new environment. Find out how they have been staffing, have they had a lot of turnover? Are people having to cover for multiple positions in an office? Have they had a reorg? You know, you want to ask a lot of those questions. Otherwise, I think the tendency is you're going to find yourself in a similar situation as you're currently in. So that is the norm in higher education right now is our staff are really experiencing a lot of stress to the point of burnout, not because they're being asked to do more than they've ever had to do before with less resources than they've ever had before.

Andy Hibel 9:11
And I think to your point that when you're in a place where maybe you're realizing that you're doing fairly well and flourishing and engaged and finding meaning in the work, people sometimes come to us and say, Oh, well, this institution contacted me. What's the harm in talking to them? And not that there's a deep harm, but if you're kind of in a place where it is kind of good, it's a lot easier to start seeing the underlying flaws in your current role. Once you've started contemplating leaving.

Laurie Schreiner 9:43
Right.

Andy Hibel 9:43
And it could, for absolutely non-academic terms, initiate the launch sequence for you, possibly thinking about leaving your current position. And the grass sometimes does always see greener on the other side. But just a baseline statistical. If 80% of the people in academia feel this way, there's a good chance that four out of five roles that you you'd look at are going to have probably similar things. It is one of those problems and it does not seem to be getting better.

Laurie Schreiner 10:14
Realizing that if you are thriving in your job, then I don't want to say that you're lucky because I think there are things that your institution should be doing to be helping more people thrive, and there's things you can do as well. But realizing that it is fairly rare to be thriving. And so there should be a good reason for moving on. And I think we have a tendency to think that we we always need to be moving up the career ladder rather than thinking, if I found something that's a really good fit for me and I'm thriving here, are there ways of really leaning into that more, or do I always have to be looking for the next best thing? That's always a good question.

Kelly Cherwin 10:57
Thank you for that. I want to circle back to something you said when you were talking, what we were discussing like if a candidate knows that this could be a potential fit for them, you said make sure that you listen to that feeling and you mentioned the the kind of sense of belonging. If someone can really see themself there and if they belong there. I love that advice to really kind of take in the big picture, not just, oh, like that's a nice little office right there. But like you said, look at what people look like. Are you being welcomed? Is the search committee welcoming you? Can you really feel like you belong in that institution or that environment or that that culture? And I know it's it's hard to determine the culture from the interview, but asking questions like you said, is so important. So thank you for that advice. So I want to switch over. I know you mentioned earlier that you started your research with with students, So you published a paper, The Thriving Question A New Vision for Student Success back in 2010. What inspired this research and how has it expanded over the years?

Laurie Schreiner 11:56
Really, That's that's where my work on Thriving began was with students. And I had done research over the years more around student retention and was finding that that did not leave me feeling that we had the whole picture of student success. And so a lot of the retention theories and retention research and what I was seeing happening in universities was not looking at the whole student. It was looking primarily at the academic portion of a student's life, which certainly is a key element. But I realized as I worked with students that it was not just their academic ability that determined whether they were successful or not, that quite often it was this sense of well-being. Am I involved in healthy relationships? Do I feel like what I'm doing and the people I'm doing it with are really meaningful to me? And do I do I have a sense of energy and am I really coming alive to who I am so that the interpersonal relationships, but also the psychological engagement was a piece that I felt had been really missing in the research on student success that had primarily focused on, well, what does it take to get the grades so that you're back the next semester and go on to graduate? And so I became really interested in what engages learners and what gets a student to invest the kind of effort that it takes to be successful academically and what kind of relationships matter and what is going on in their heads to be really psychologically engaged and to feel connected to other people. So it began with students. And as I worked with a lot of institutions in measuring student success this way, I did a lot of faculty workshops, and faculty would invariably come up to me at the end of the workshop because I would emphasize how important faculty's role was in student success. And they would often say back, Oh, am I supposed to be helping students thrive when I'm not thriving? And so I began to look at faculty thriving, which as a faculty member myself, that was near and dear to my heart. But then my staff colleagues are like, Wait a minute, what about us? I mean, it is a collaborative effort across faculty and staff, faculty and staff working together to help students succeed. And what I was hearing on many campuses that I visited was that both faculty and staff were finding it hard to thrive themselves, which then created a barrier for them to feel the kind of energy that they needed to invest in students. So that's how my research really has evolved over the years. My goal personally is that I want to promote thriving campuses, to say our students, our faculty, our staff. What does it take for all of them to really be energized and meaningfully engaged in their work and feeling like what they do matters?

Kelly Cherwin 15:19
I love that. I mean, I think that's what we all want, that energy of thriving and not just surviving or going day by day, but actually enjoying and being engaged. So thank you for that. So, Laurie, I know we mentioned that your article, what it takes for university Staff to Thrive, and we will link that for those people who want to read the whole article. But just in case, people can't if they're driving their car or walking right now and they can't read the article. What are some of the major points that you discussed in that piece and through your research? That is important for staff and faculty to thrive on campus?

Laurie Schreiner 15:50
So what we found is that the most important factor for university staff to thrive is that there is a culture on campus, what we call a campus culture of trust. That by far was the most important contributor to creating the kind of environment where staff can thrive. So what we mean by a culture of trust is that's a reciprocal relationship. So it's not just do staff trust university leaders, it's also do they feel trusted by university leaders? So it is that reciprocal nature. It is. Do I feel like as a staff member, do I feel that the university is headed in the direction that makes sense, that the leaders are competent and trustworthy? Do I know what's happening on campus? Do I feel like the staff voice matters and is taken into consideration? Do I feel like the university leadership is committed to my well-being or to staff wellbeing? And so it is also a collaborative kind of environment. And so, you know, I think when we think about do I feel a sense of belonging on campus, it is when I feel like I'm in a collaborative environment that I can trust that I am most likely to feel like I belong. So if I were to say what is the hallmark of a thriving campus, it is this collaborative engagement. It is we're able to work across the silos. We work together. We're not territorial. We're finding ways that we each bring our strengths to a situation. And so the kind of of environment that creates that collaborative engagement is when I can be vulnerable, when I can trust you, that if we in fact break down those silos and start to work together, that it's not a win lose kind of environment. It really is a collaborative or win win kind of environment. So that's the number one thing, is do I feel like I'm in a place where I can trust you and I know that you trust me, You know that that there is this matter of integrity across our relationships. The second thing that we found was a significant predictor of whether university or the degree to which university staff were thriving is whether that environment was equitable. Now, what that means is, is do they feel like staff are treated in a way that's kind of commensurate with their contribution? Right. So equity is not equality. Equity is that I am getting out of a place about what I'm putting in and that people feel like they're being treated fairly. And the other thing is we did our interviews with university staff is that this often sometimes they would tell a story personally. But the far more common thing we found is that there were almost these university legends, things that had happened, and urban myths, if you will, urban legends that, oh, this happened to someone. And it was kind of a signal that this wasn't a place that was very equitable. And so an equitable environment is often what is your messaging? Is there a strong commitment coming from the leadership of the university, a strong commitment to inclusion, to creating the kind of environment where people are valued for their contribution and they know that they will be treated fairly, Though part of this also is do staff feel like the vision which is connected to mission? So mission is kind of this context. Why do we do what we're doing and where are we headed? And so when staff feel connected to both of those things, the they resonate with the mission, but they're also motivated by the vision. That is part of what came out when we asked, Well, what is an equitable environment look like now? Interestingly, many staff felt like there was supposed to be a politically correct answer to that, and we said, we just want to know what this means to you. And then they went on to tell either negative stories because they felt like they were not in an equitable environment or they said, well, it's things that our university leaders do that say this is the kind of place where we're proud to work here and we feel like we're all on the same page. And I'm committed to the mission and vision of the institution. And I know that this is a place of integrity. Then the third thing that we found was a significant contributor was the supervisor relationship. So as we think about university staff and kind of the locus of thriving, it's kind of a zoom in and zoom out and that is the immediate locus of thriving is zooming in on those relationships in the department, particularly with the supervisor. So when staff felt like they had a supervisor who cared about them as a person, and when they felt that they had received positive feedback from their supervisor and were getting some regular feedback about their work, that made all the difference in the world. So thriving is happening at that department level, particularly in the relationship with supervisor, but it's also happening at the kind of zooming out to the ultimate leadership of the institution. Do they feel like the institution is a place of integrity that's going in the direction that they they want to go? And so that supervisor care is the day to day environment that you want to create. And so thinking really carefully, who do we hire in a supervisory role? How do people become supervisors? How are we equipping them for that supervisory experience? And I think we often have not paid sufficient attention to the importance of that relationship. You know, the Gallup organization is pretty famous for saying that people leave managers, not companies. And so I think that's true in higher education as well, that it is that supervisor relationship and we often have not attend it as carefully as we should have to equipping supervisors for giving the kind of feedback with the kind of frequency and instructive constructive nature that communicates a deep care for the person. And the final thing we found contributed to thriving in university staff was when they felt like there was a sense of security about their job. And that seems pretty obvious of I'm thinking more likely to have a job here, but I think this also conveys their faith in the institution. If they feel like the institution is on shaky ground, that makes it really hard for them to thrive because they're wondering, will I have a job next year? Can I count on this place or is my job going to get reorganized into something else in the university? And so I think that when a university is financially unstable, that that creates the kind of environment that means the supervisor really has to be conveying a lot more frequently what is happening and giving a lot of good feedback to the individual person so that the person trusts that even if things go south for the university, there are people who are paying attention in our caring for the staff in that process.

Andy Hibel 24:05
Thank you. That that's simply awesome. On that last point, I think over the nearly 30 years of of HigherEdJobs, that's probably the number one point that's changed. Used to be able to go to a university and really not even ask those questions. Now if you don't as a job seeker, you don't do your fiscal due diligence and put on the best version of your CPA personality that you have and look at all these different metrics that measure the financial health and they're out there, like you said, Well, how would I know they're out there? Go research those, determine what's there. But I think what struck me so much about all four of them, while trust was the number one, it is all about when trust is there. It's going to be the bedrock of what the relationship is and allow somebody to really find meaning in their work and flourish in a safe way. When trust is absent, it's very difficult to do that. And I think I feel remiss if I didn't just point this out. It's a lot easier to lose trust, that is, to build trust. So if you have it, cherish it. That is very, very rare.

Laurie Schreiner 25:17
That's so true. You know that trust is often built on competence and it's lost a very, very quickly on character issues. You know, when I feel like you've not said the full truth of a situation, even when there have been integrity issues or when I can't depend on what you're saying or I feel kept in the dark and lose interest happens in an instant and then it takes a long time to rebuild. So thinking about as a university leader or even at the level of supervisor, how do I build this? And maintain it despite what may be happening in the environment around me or in the broader academic setting? How do I create that kind of sense that we deeply care for our employees, for our students, and that we are confident in what lies ahead?

Andy Hibel 26:10
So kind of in that same theme, my wife and I have two children who are both in college. We have a senior and a freshman and they're at the most different of institutions. But giant research, one university and a absolutely micro, small private liberal arts college. And my wife would definitely say probably to enamored with both of them. And they both do a very good job of this. But are the factors leading to staff thriving, differing based on those locations? Is a small private liberal arts college and a large research one institution going to be doing this in a different way? And the factor is going to be showing things differently.

Laurie Schreiner 26:51
But that's an ongoing question for us as we do our research. Much of our initial research has been conducted with small to medium sized institutions, and so we're wanting to expand our research into larger institutions. However, I'm going, I'm going to go out on a limb a little bit and look at my colleagues who've been doing this research for quite some time in a more corporate setting. And when they've looked at thriving at work and we find there are some key differences, I think for for higher education, that sense of mission and vision, that institutional affinity, if you will, seems to be far more important in the university setting than we see in more of a corporate setting. But what we find in a lot of the corporate work on on thriving at work that Gretchen Spritzer and Kristina Porat and others have done, is that what leads to thriving does not look that different across institutions. But where that happens? So when you're at the large university, that bureaucracy might be more frustrating to you, you might feel more overwhelmed. It might be harder to know whether you can trust that upper level of leadership. But at the end of the day, thriving is happening in the day to day relationships with the people whose paths you cross. It's your supervisors, your coworkers, the other departments that you serve, or who serve you that primarily determines your ability to thrive. So whether that is a small private institution or a large public or an R1 you know, those are the relationships that are really making the difference in staff's ability to thrive. And so although we want to research this more carefully, to be able to answer that definitively, when I look at my colleagues research and where that kind of locus of thriving, I'm inclined to say that that's where the emphasis needs to be, regardless of your size of institution.

Kelly Cherwin 29:07
It's great. So interesting. So I'm going to be a little bit of a nerd here and maybe get some brownie points from you, Professor Schreiner. But I feel like a lot of our conversation today is bringing in Maslow's hierarchy, and if you don't feel secure in a position, then you are going to be able to thrive. So I note you mentioned that if a staff or faculty member doesn't have that feeling of thriving, they can't necessarily support their students. So what are your thoughts? You know, following the pandemic have been debates about productivity and working remotely, which may lead professionals away from jobs in higher ed if there are some on campus requirements. So based on your research, how can employers in academia strike this right balance? And I know we talked about before, the right balance is is is a hard word, but do you any thoughts on this?

Laurie Schreiner 29:50
Yes, I do. And there's actually been some pretty good work done again, through more of a corporate setting as remote work became more the pattern, certainly during COVID and and then after COVID, researchers have done a lot of good work on the effects of remote work on employees ability to thrive. And they found that it actually is a major barrier to thriving. And so I think when you say can we strike the right balance, I think this is a great question because we've learned through COVID that there are some pieces of our work where having the piece and quiet and ability to concentrate when we're if that can happen at home, that I might need a day, a week to do that, to really crank through my to do list and get things done that ultimately matter to students. But if you're looking at my own ability to thrive, it is in relationships. It is in the people that I meet and whose paths cross with mine. It's the student engagement as well. For us as staff that can can be very life giving. And so I think finding that balance of, well, what part of your job really needs the concentration for productivity and how much of your job is actually it is the interaction. So these are not interruptions. These these interactions are your job. And so I think that's the question I would be asking is, well, really, what is the job? What is it that has to be done? And I know for me personally, I realize when I'm on campus, for me to think, oh, I should be able to grade papers or to get this report done, I actually don't even try that. So I think I'm there for the relationships when I'm on campus is to interact with people. It is to check in with them to see how things are going to be able to have fun together, to talk about what's been happening and where we see things going for our department. It's those relationships. And so I think the meetings become how do we inject some of that energy and relationship investment so that it's not all about the to do list, it's not all about the tasks it really is. I'm on campus for the purpose of interacting with my colleagues and with my students. And so just thinking about how much of that is part of the job description, I think is the question for a supervisor. I know personal leave for my own office staff for them to have the flexibility, and I think that's the key. See, that conveys trust. When I say you tell me what you need, you tell me if you need Friday morning or really all day Friday to be working remotely to do catch up work because we've invested a lot in our students and in each other this week, then I want you to have the freedom to do that. And I think when a supervisor can give their staff that flexibility and trust their decisions, I think that's when amazing things can happen. And, you know, there's some good research being done in South Africa right now. I was at Stellenbosch University last summer and they're doing some great research there around a four day workweek. And you know, a lot of times we think, oh, let's cram 40 hours into four days. No, it is literally four, eight hour days. And they found that when they give their employees the flexibility and just say, here's the things that we agree on together need to be done this week. And when they're done, then you get the time off. And so it is giving that flexibility. And I think that's the key, is you're conveying a sense of trust to the employee and it is something that you work out over time. It's not something that you immediately know what that's going to be like for each person. But it is to say, we're going to figure this out together. What aspects of your job can be done remotely and flexibly and what aspects? We really need your presence and we value your input and contribution here.

Kelly Cherwin 34:15
Yeah, that's fantastic. I like how you said it's done together. It's a, you know, collaborative approach. Circling back to what we talked about at the beginning of the conversation. So, Laurie, thank you so much for this wonderful conversation. But to close things out, I want to ask how can universities and colleges assist in this research or learn more about this project that you're working on?

Laurie Schreiner 34:31
We have a website thriving in college dot org, and so that covers students and faculty and staff. There's a lot of information about those things. We are very interested in a wide variety of institutions participating in the research, and we can have certainly conversations with institutions that are interested in either providing data. We also do a report that compares the staff responses from your institution to those of the national norms that have been created. So if you want a comparison, we can do that. But if you simply want to contribute to the data, that's a different conversation that we can have. And I'm always happy to have that with institutions. We really are wanting to expand the types of institutions and to begin because we do this as mixed methods research, and that is we use quantitative structural equation modeling approaches, but we also interview staff who agree to be interviewed as part of the survey process. And hearing their stories is an important part of this as well. And so we're always eager to hear more of those stories and to get deeper into aspects of the environment that may be different across different types of institutions.

Kelly Cherwin 35:54
Thank you for all that. We'll make sure we'll put the website in the recap, So thanks for that.

Andy Hibel 35:58
Thank you, Laurie. This was a wonderful time to spend together and I think our community is going to really enjoy some of the amazing insights that you had to share. If you have a question about this podcast or some comments or some thoughts, please feel free to email us at

36:15
podcast@HigherEdJobs. com or send us a direct message on X @higheredcareers.

Kelly Cherwin 36:21
Thanks, Laurie, great.

Laurie Schreiner 36:22
Thank you so much.

Andy Hibel 36:23
Thank you for listening. And we look forward to talking to you next time.