Andrew Hibel: [00:00:00] Welcome to the HigherEdJobs Podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.
Kelly Cherwin: And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the Director of Editorial Strategy. Today we are joined by Mac Pritchard, who is the founder and publisher of Mac's List, where he writes regularly about job searching and hiring.
He also hosts the Find Your Dream Job podcast and leads classes and events on job search skills. When Mac moved to Portland, Oregon in 2001, he started an email list sharing job opportunities with his colleagues to keep in touch and serve his community. The list grew into an email newsletter, which grew into a website, and today Mac's list is the premier job board in Portland and the Pacific Northwest, sharing hundreds of the best professional level local jobs.
Mac, welcome so much. We're thrilled to have you on today.
Mac Pritchard: Well, thanks for having me on the show Kelly and Andy.
Andrew Hibel: Great to see you, Mac.
Mac Pritchard: You as well.
Kelly Cherwin: So for today's conversation, we're going to focus on the seasoned professional or the more experienced job seeker. And we're also going to touch on some trends that you're currently seeing in the job search realm.[00:01:00]
So, first, Mac, let's start with a book that you've written called Landing Your Dream Job and also your podcast is Find Your Dream Job. So, I want to start with the definition. How do you define a dream job and how can a dream position change over time? Because I think we all know sometimes dreams don't always match up with reality and things change.
So, what are your thoughts on that?
Mac Pritchard: A dream job is one that aligns with your personal and professional goals and in order to find that job you gotta be clear about what you want and you need to know the job that you want and what matters to you in your personal circumstances and when you know the answers to those questions it helps you not only find a dream job Kelly it makes your job search easier and shorter, and it also leads to a more engaging and satisfying career. I will also say about dream jobs, remember, we're all going to be in the workplace probably for 40 years. And that means we're likely to have 10 or, or more different jobs, [00:02:00] not every position is going to be a dream job and that's okay.
But what matters is if you know what you want and what you need at that point in your career, you're going to find a job that it might not be your dream position, but it's going to meet your needs. And in the long run, that's what matters most of all.
Kelly Cherwin: I like that it's narrowing in on what your needs are and kind of not just throwing a dart at the dartboard and just seeing what it is, but kind of targeting in what fits your needs.
So that's, that's helpful. So, let's move on to a fair number of questions from our audience we get on this topic. One of your blog posts we appreciated focuses on resume formatting tips to combat ageism, including dropping dates for education and graduation, in addition to other things. So, what other tips would you suggest for a job seeker, quote, of a certain age, unquote, as you said, on their resume?
Mac Pritchard: Well, remember, first of all, that you don't have to list every position you've ever had since graduation from high school or college, but maybe even high school jobs, and I do see resumes that do that, and it's well [00:03:00] intentioned, you want to give a sense of what your experience is but for most mid-career at more senior people, you really only have to go back about 15 years, and I think it's important to give listeners, particularly those who are farther along in their career, permission to do that.
I think also, when you think about your resume, you need to think about sgeism in hiring. Let's also just say right up front, it's illegal. It shouldn't happen. It does happen and you got to deal with it. You could go to court and try to fight it, but you're better off just focusing on your search. And one of the ways to deal with ageism in hiring is to think about the misconceptions that employers have and address those not only in your application materials, but in your interviews as well. So, a number comes to mind, you've mentioned leaving off dates on your university and other graduate dates. I think a common misconception is technology. There's a misperception out there that [00:04:00] older workers aren't good at software or keeping up with the latest trends.
In your resume, you can show certificates and your experience using technology. And that's a way of addressing that misconception. And that's a principle you can follow throughout your application materials.
Kelly Cherwin: I like that you brought up the point about it does happen and obviously we know it's illegal. We actually did a podcast earlier and the topic came up about interviewing the employer and it was along the lines of like, if you have children, you know, exploring that side of the candidate, which obviously, like we said, is, is illegal. But if a, a more seasoned professional is interviewing at an institution and they get the feeling that they are being discriminated against for their age, it's almost like a red flag.
Like this is not the type of place that I would really want to be working at kind of like what we were saying this morning with like, if they don't welcome children, then that might not be the place for you. So, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, but I just thought I'd, I'd highlight that.
Mac Pritchard: I'm glad you brought that up because I think.
In a good job [00:05:00] search, one that's done effectively, you're doing a lot of research about the employers that you've targeted, and you've not only gotten clear about the job you want, when we talked about finding your dream job, you've also focused on a select group of employers. You can go on a job board like the ones we run, and you can find hundreds, thousands of opportunities, but candidly, only a couple dozen are likely to be right for you. And they're probably only a couple dozen employers who are going to meet your needs. And once you have that focus, both on the position and the employer you want, then you can dig in deep and learn about the employer's culture, the opportunities they offer, and start building connections and relationships with people inside those organizations, and when you do that, bringing it back to older workers, Kelly, you're going to learn whether this is a place that does support a multi-generational workforce, and that's probably a place you want to be as someone who's mid [00:06:00] career or farther along in their career, and that's a place that you're likely to end up, want to be at, and thrive.
Andrew Hibel: I think what's interesting about experienced workers, is that folks kind of get the impression though, I'm an experienced worker and somehow the math is going to be different if a position is requiring seven to 10 years or 10 to 15 years, the only way to have seven to 10 years or 10 to 15 years of experience is to work seven to 10 years or 10 to 15 years.
You don't somehow complete 10 years or 15 years of work in three. Like the math does not add up that way. [Right.] So, if that's what the position is looking for. It's obvious that they're looking for something more than somebody who is not a seasoned professional in a position like this. So, kind of taking that, if a position is asking for a seasoned professional, how do you, as you put to it, embrace the experience?
I think there's such a fear of like, well, I don't want to let my age show through. But in those positions that require experience, because they're [00:07:00] looking for additional skills that come with experience, how do you embrace that and say, hold on a sec, maybe this is a resume where I do want to put my years here.
Maybe this is a resume where it does help me to talk about my experience over the years because the position calls for it. How do folks, as you say, embrace that experience?
Mac Pritchard: Well, I think they start by looking at what the employer wants, what are the needs of that organization, and it starts with skills, Andy, and, you know, sometimes employers, they put years of experience because that's something that's familiar to them, and they don't do as good a job explaining the skills that they want.
So the more you can understand before you apply about what skills matter most to that employer, what their challenges are and their problems and what's keeping them up at night and how you can solve them, the more advantage you're going to have as a candidate, wherever you are in your career, whether you're five years out of college or 15 or 20, and you can do that [00:08:00] again, and I keep coming back to this, but the basics matter by having clear goals and a short list of employers that you're focusing on because that allows you to make connections and have conversations with people on the inside. And that helps you when you work with people directly, even reaching out to them in a job search, they're going to see who you are and what you can do for them. And that's going to help you overcome misconceptions about aging and stereotypes out there about older workers.
Kelly Cherwin: Thank you for that. I wanted to go a little deeper there. Some employers may believe an older candidate's salary requirements will cost them more money. So, what, what can job seekers do in this situation?
Mac Pritchard: Well, first do your homework and do the research to find out what your local market pays for the position you want. You can do this in a number of ways. There are great research websites out there like PayScale. You can pull job postings with the title of the position that's your target. And look at what local employers are paying, you may [00:09:00] be fortunate enough to live in a community where by law, employers are required to disclose salary.
I think nationally, more than half of online job postings now include some salary information. So, if you know what you want and what the market pays. You can deal with questions about salary in the offer process, and it may not even be an issue, but if you are farther along in your career and you're looking to either make a lateral move or maybe a step down in terms of responsibility and salary, you need to address that up front, why you're applying for a position that is less than what you might have earned in the past.
And you can do that in your application materials and in your interviews. And again, if you're, you're networking and doing informational interviews, you can also get that message out in informal conversations with people inside the organization. So, you don't want to postpone that research [00:10:00] about what the market pays and what salary you need until the offer stage. That's way too late. Be clear about it up front and incorporate that information into the start of your search and you'll avoid some awkward conversations farther down the line.
Kelly Cherwin: I love that advice. And I don't know if you think it can even be addressed in a cover letter because if you don't connect the dots for that potential employer, they might just assume like, oh, this, this person doesn't want to take a lateral move or a step back and you very well could be. So, if you kind of explain the situation up front, like you said, I think that that is great.
Mac Pritchard: Kelly, you're making such an important point here, which is unspoken assumptions. So, if you think the employer has concerns about your qualifications for a job, why you might be interested in, in taking a pay cut or that you're too old for the position, throughout the application and the interview process, you need to address those concerns because it may be illegal to bring up your, it is illegal to bring up your age, [00:11:00] but that, that doesn't mean the hiring manager isn't thinking about that stuff.
So, take a list of objections you think the employer is likely to have. I'm too old, I'm too expensive, I haven't kept up to date, I won't be able to work for a younger person, and find ways to address those objections. And it's not only in the application process and the interviews, but also you can do it on your LinkedIn profile.
So, if you want to demonstrate that you are comfortable working for younger bosses, get endorsements on your LinkedIn page from people you have worked for, who are younger than you, or peers who might be a generation or two younger than you. And that shows that you are comfortable working in a multi-generational workplace and that you're comfortable working for younger supervisors.
Because in the end, Kelly, in every career, there's a point where we're the youngest person in the room and there's a point where we're the oldest person in the room. And how you navigate that journey in between is, is going to [00:12:00] make a huge difference in the satisfaction that you get from your career.
Kelly Cherwin: Great points and great advice. I love the, the, like be prepared with a list of objections and then how you can overcome those. That's great.
Andrew Hibel: In your piece, ‘Seven Tactics for Competing as an Older Professional’, you talked earlier about using and demonstrating technology skills, but you also discussed the importance of developing a strong personal brand.
Kind of tying that back to the last answer, if these are things that are part of your skill set, of working for younger supervisors, of feeling comfortable in multi-generational workplaces. Could you talk about how you can incorporate your personal brand and kind of your career story to be consistent with demonstrating those skills and maybe elaborate a little bit more about that piece and those seven tactics?
Mac Pritchard: Well, it starts with being clear about what you offer and to do that you've got to have a good understanding of your, your strengths and your accomplishments. And many of us, [00:13:00] we don't do a good job of not only tooting our own horn, but understanding what we're good at. And so, there are a lot of self assessment tools out there Andy, as you know, find one, or it could be as informal as just asking three to five peers that you've worked with in the past or former supervisors, when you think about my top strengths and my most important accomplishments, what comes to mind? Much of the feedback you get will likely be familiar, but there might be some surprises.
And if it is something you've heard before, it's a confirmation that you are on the right track. You understand who you are and what you offer and the difference you can make when you're in the workplace. Once you're clear about that, then it's a question of sharing your personal brand and you need to do that online.
LinkedIn is probably the one place everybody needs to be. Not only with a good, optimized profile that shares your strengths and your accomplishments, but it's also a great publishing [00:14:00] platform, as you know, for getting out your perspective on industry news and trends. Because in the end, we know if we're a candidate for a job being considered for an interview, we're going to get Google and LinkedIn is going to jump to the top.
But people don't only live online. When you go out into the community, whether it's to professional associations or networking events, or you're doing informational interviews, you gotta think about who you are, what you stand for, and what you can do for others, and find ways in those conversations and in your work in the community that delivers those messages.
Kelly Cherwin: Mac, thank you for that. And you, you actually echoed something we talked about in a previous podcast regarding being able to toot your own horn and not underestimating your skills, how important it is for a job seeker of any age to understand what they're good at and be promoting it and be a self-advocate.
So, thank you for that advice. So, you, you referenced the multi-generational work environment. And I know [00:15:00] you touched briefly on discussing the idea with, with a future employer of potentially working with a supervisor who might be younger. So, if a search committee or interviewer is asking questions of, you know, how you could work in a team and maybe, maybe, you know, through your research or, you know, just walking through the office, you see the team is a little bit younger than you. How can you get that message across that you are a team player? You can work with all different ages. It doesn't matter. How can you, how can you do that as a job seeker?
Mac Pritchard: Be prepared for that question and it's going to come whether it's asked or is unspoken and walk into that room with stories that show how you not only worked with a multi-generational team, but for younger supervisors and as with any good story in a job interview, be prepared to talk about what the situation was, you know, follow the star method. And I, I'm sure your listeners are familiar with that, but you want to talk about the [00:16:00] situation and the result and you want to practice those stories before you walk into the room, you don't need a lot of them, Kelly, but you do need to have a library of stories, maybe 5 to 10, that illustrate the points you want to make in that interview, and you know what the questions are likely to be, because in the end, we all remember, stories stick with us, and we can tell people that we can do something, and we can give them facts and data, but it's the stories that people remember, the examples that we provide, that will linger after you walk out of that interview room.
Andrew Hibel: I think it's also a question of making sure, like one of the best parts about being an experienced professional is as a member of generation X, I can remember when we were in the stage of generation Z. And I think you need to have age empathy to understand, hey, what was it truly like when we were that age, but also have situational awareness to the point of the circumstances of Gen [00:17:00] Z or that this age are very different than Gen X was and understand what is there being able to say, Hey, I know it's age appropriate that having to college students as children who are Gen Zers right now, I know it's age appropriate for college students to stay up late, hard stop. Now us Gen Xers who like me or in our mid-fifties, staying up late isn't as much of an option as it was when we were in college.
Sorry, I'm laughing. 8:30 p.m. Like what's up? Wait for you, Andy. Nine. Oh, yeah. Let's cut to the chase.
Andrew Hibel: So, the kids did get a picture of me on the couch with the two dogs at about 8. 49 a couple nights ago, and I was on the verge of being asleep. So if you look at that take that experience and run with it.
Like, you know what it was like at that point. Try to do your best not to look back with rose colored glasses, but have some empathy [00:18:00] to understanding what that situation is. Cause yeah, the younger generations don't want to hear about how it's better or worse, they just want you to understand the plight that they're going through.
Mac Pritchard: I would agree. We were all young once.
Andrew Hibel: Exactly.
Kelly Cherwin: I wanted to add on to your part about the storytelling. I think that is so important because you're right, like you can, you can explain yourself on a resume or a CV and you know, it's words on paper. But when you are in, you know, a Zoom interview, in person sharing those stories, you really are building that connection and it's a lot easier for a person to realize like I could see this person potentially working on our team, or maybe not, or vice versa. Maybe you're like, I just don't feel like I could fit in here. So having those, those stories prepared is, is fantastic advice. And I hope our listeners can, can come up, I'm not saying can make up stories, but can, can, uh, draw on their experiences to, to be prepared to bring those stories to the interview.
Mac Pritchard: It makes a huge difference. And [00:19:00] the classic rookie mistake in a job search, and this happens to many people at the start of their career, is believing that qualifications alone, credentials alone, will get you the job. And they're important. They're table stakes. You gotta have them, whether it's experiences or certificates or diplomas, whatever the position may require.
But in the end, the other finalists are gonna have those credentials. And so, how do you stand out, telling stories about your experiences, dealing with the challenges, the problems that are keeping that hiring manager up at night, are going to give you an advantage over your competitors. And storytelling takes practice to do it well, like any skill, and job search in general.
So that means. Before you walk into the room, you gotta practice your stories, but, uh, the more you invest in it, the more dividends that will pay for you, not only in your current job search, but throughout your career.
Andrew Hibel: The table stakes merely get you a seat at the table, they get you [00:20:00] nothing else.
Mac Pritchard: And you need them to get in the door. And so what do you do next? Sometimes candidates don't know what to do next. And so I think what you do next is you show that you understand the needs of the hiring manager and a great way to do that, Andy, and this is a way to distinguish yourself from your competitors is at the end of the interview, there's always an opportunity to ask questions, you know, uh, as a candidate and you can say to the, the manager, if I'm fortunate enough to get this job and we're sitting down a year from now and we're doing my evaluation, what are the three things you want me to tell you I've done for you?
And when you ask that question, I guarantee you. The hiring manager, she'll, she'll lean back, she'll think for a moment, and she'll tell you about some challenge that's not in the job posting, that hasn't been addressed in the interview questions, and that gives you an opportunity to reflect back on how you've dealt with that [00:21:00] problem in the past, or share your ideas, if you haven't dealt with it directly, and when you start having that conversation with her, you'll start problem solving together, and she'll see you in a different way.
As a fellow problem solver, and also you're dealing with something that really matters to her because there's some problem that she's hiring this person to fix, and she's told you about some of them, but now you know about one that your competitors don't know about, and then that's a way to stand out.
Andrew Hibel: It’s interesting. We've talked before on the podcast about how you move from the beginning of the interview being a ‘you’ to being a part of the ‘we’ in the room at the end of the interview. Yeah. And that's an amazingly effective way. Yeah. I'm going to take a little bit of a sidestep here because I think it's also a great opportunity.
And I know we've had a relationship over a good number of years, Mac. And I know that this is something we both have talked about offline quite often is how do you do all of that while still being true to [00:22:00] yourself and what that goal is for who you are, cause at the end of the day, they're hiring you.
They're not hiring your interview. They're not hiring the best version of you. They're hiring you in all aspects. How does somebody be able to do that authentically in an interview?
Mac Pritchard: Well, I think it starts with not using phrases, and I've done this, I did this at the start of my career, but like, I could do that job.
You probably could, but is that the job you really want to do? You know, I'm keeping my options open. Well, why? Because you could, you're looking at hundreds of jobs or thousands on a particular job board and maybe with enough training and effort and time, you could do one of those jobs well, but in fact, Andy, there are only a handful of jobs we're going to get most excited about doing and to your point about authenticity, if you're clear about what it is you want and what you offer, authenticity is not an [00:23:00] issue in both the application and the interview process because you're focusing on the jobs you really want.
You know your strengths, so you're focusing on the positions that you're going to do really well. And when you're pursuing something that you want and you're good at, you're going to bring an energy and an excitement to that application and those conversations that's going to shine through. And interviewers will pick up on that.
And to your point, you're being authentic because you're being you. And you're not focusing on things you could do, or others think you might want to do. Now, sometimes you got to take a paycheck job. You got bills to pay, and maybe you have to work as a temp because your unemployment has run out. And maybe it's, it's not your dream job, and it's not a job you're especially excited about.
But there's a dignity that comes with work, that when you're paying your bills, and you're meeting your obligations to yourself and your family, that is important. And if you're not clear about what you really want, taking [00:24:00] a paycheck job can help bring that clarity. And sometimes, a lot of things are out of our control.
We might be in a paycheck job for a while, but as long as you know what you want, and you're working to get there, you will get it.
Andrew Hibel: And I think that that's a great point. We can sometimes have the privilege of being able to do this in a perfect set of circumstances, but there's times when you can't and there's folks who don't often get that privilege or may never get that privilege in life.
So, when, when you do have that ability to do it, be thankful for it. And you have the, the authenticity when you are able to do it that way and put that sort of candidacy forward, to me, it's like, it's the biggest inoculation against a bad fit. If you're out there and you're fully yourself and they love you, this has a good chance of really being a place where you're going to absolutely set down some roots and really enjoy your experience and make a difference within that institution or organization.
Mac Pritchard: Yeah. And it, again, it starts with clarity and it's so [00:25:00] funny, the business we're in, we provide people lots and lots of choices running job boards. And I think that's a wonderful thing. The paradox of that, though, is sometimes people think they can be all things to all employers. And in fact, we can't. We need to focus on what we're good at and what we want and what excites us.
And that's why at Mac’s List we invest a lot of energy and resources in helping people improve their job search skills. And I know you all do that as well. Because it makes not only for easier and shorter job searches, it makes for better candidates for our advertisers.
Kelly Cherwin: Something you just said really resonated with me. I guess I never really looked at it this way, but We're talking about a job seeker who has that luxury to kind of be selective and, you know, they're looking for various positions. And I remember doing this as well years ago where I'd read a job description and maybe I'd be like enticed by the title or the salary and I'd be like, I could do that.
But then again, thinking about what you [00:26:00] just said, do I really want that? Is that what I want? So, identifying between just settling almost compared to like being authentically and like passionate about which road you want to go. So hopefully that makes sense from my little thought process here.
Mac Pritchard: No, it is a such an important point, Kelly, because if you're in an interview and you're talking to someone about a job you could do, I think there's some uncertainty on your part if you're that candidate.
Hiring managers are smart. They'll pick up on that. They're talking not just to you, but probably three, five other people. And one or more of your competitors are going to be people who know they want that job. They are excited about that job. And that excitement is going to shine through. The disadvantage for you, if you're the person who's thinking, I could do that, is it's hard to compete against that.
So why be in that room at all? Why [00:27:00] not try to get into the room for the position you're really excited about at the employer, you've done your homework and you know that's the place you want to be. And this matters whatever your, your age, but I think for older workers, it's especially important because you're, again, dealing with those misconceptions and stereotypes about older workers.
So when you've got that clarity about what you want and where you want to be and you've invested in the, the networking, that's going to not only help you have that clarity that's going to lead to the excitement about being in that room. It's going to help you stand out as well.
Kelly Cherwin: I think one of the key words today is clarity. I really like that.
Andrew Hibel: I would agree. And I think at the end of the day, there's one big shared interest that employers and candidates share. They don't want to go back into this process six months later. So, when you're giving the answer that I could do that job, I'd be willing to do that job. I think I could possibly do that job or whatever variation the employer is going to immediately think, that's great, six months from now when they find the job [00:28:00] they want to do. They're going to be someplace else, and I'm going to have to fill this position all over again. And there might be instances where having a superstar in a position for a short period of time works well, but usually that works well when that person might be able to move into another opportunity within the organization, not when they're going to just go someplace else.
So, I think that that, that clarity and that purpose and that stated goal is so darn important. Now we're going to go something to why it's so important for candidates to really be thinking about things about clarity. Because, Mac, you mentioned recently that it's an employer's market. Help our listeners understand what this means, what you're seeing, and if it's a regional trend for where you are, or is this something even broader in the United States?
Mac Pritchard: I think it's a broader national trend, Andy. If you and Kelly have a different perspective, I want to hear it. In talking to employers and job board operators around the country. [00:29:00] What I'm hearing is that after the pandemic, and we certainly saw this in our figures, uh, there was a huge increase in hiring in 21 and 22, but in 2023, spending on online advertising went way down.
There was a decline. And why is that happening? Because you look at the unemployment rate in the United States, and it's still at relatively historic lows across the country. Well, what I'm hearing from employers is that they probably over hired in 21 and 22. So as people started leaving, positions weren't getting filled.
And we saw maybe a once in a lifetime event in 21, 22. I hesitate to say it was that singular, but it was certainly exceptional. So why do I go through all this history? It's because I'm hearing from job seekers that it's taking longer for employers to make hiring decisions. In fact, candidates are telling me employers are reverting to [00:30:00] old, bad habits, you know, taking months to make choices, putting candidates through multiple interviews, asking people to do presentations without reimbursing them for their time.
And this wasn't happening in 21 and 22. So what changed? I think there's probably some uncertainty about the economic future, but I also think in the end, it's about managing risk. And hiring managers want to make sure that then when they do make a choice, they've involved, and they think the way to manage that risk is involve a lot of decision makers and take time to make that choice.
And so, it's still a good time to look, but I think it's also, it's a reminder that the fundamentals still matter when you're doing a job search, and the candidates who are clear about what they want and where they want to go, I think, are having relatively shorter searches than those who are simply applying [00:31:00] online and not doing much else, and three years ago, you could look online, probably find a great job, or you got cold called by a recruiter. And those days are behind us.
Andrew Hibel: I think you're spot on there, Mac. If you look at roughly the past 25 years of HigherEdJobs in five-year segments, the past five years has been by far the most variable of those. Everything was usually within if I can go a little academic within a standard deviation of what you could predict, yeah, it's a little off, but it wasn't so variable.
It's been absolute fits and spurts. It's uneven throughout the academic market. I think there's fatigue on the part of employers and candidates alike about revisiting this process again and again and again. And I think the pandemic is one of those factors. I think you also see particularly a larger campus when there's just a lot of staffing that needs to be done for positions with multiple people serving the same role, you're not getting the number of [00:32:00] candidates that you were seeing in some of those roles pre pandemic. And I think on the candidate side, I think everybody's taken a pretty good audit of what their values are and what they want and what's important to them. And I do think you're right though, candidates are being more precise and what they're looking for or having an easier time.
But also I think they have less tolerance for, I'm not going to take a role that I'm not looking for right now. Life is too short to like here in Chicago, I've been saying this past summer, life is too short to be a White Sox fan. Like life is too short to be whatever this is. Life is too short to serve these sorts of things that I would have tolerated in a position, but today I'm not going to tolerate, so.
Mac Pritchard: And I'm glad, Andy, you brought up the candidate perspective here, because candidates are managing risk too, in the last year or two. People who might have applied for other positions are thinking, maybe it's not a good time to, to move around. So I'm, I'm going to stay here for a while.[00:33:00] And when they do that, that means fewer opportunities for other people who might be looking for work.
Kelly Cherwin: I have a trivia question for all listening, we were at CUPA HR annual conference last week and there was a I'm not going to name the institution. It was on the West Coast. They said, well, I'll ask you, what do you think their number one search term from the job seeker, the candidate side was when they were looking on their, their site.
Andrew Hibel: Oh, wow.
Kelly Cherwin: Talking about what a job seeker wants. The number one term was remote. Did you get it, Mike?
Andrew Hibel: I was going to say hybrid.
Kelly Cherwin: Oh, okay. Okay. Ding,
ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Everyone in here. So.
Mac Pritchard: I was thinking hybrid too.
Kelly Cherwin: It just shows you that it's just people can be selective employers, obviously can be selective, but things have changed definitely in the past five years.
Mac Pritchard: And I would say, Kelly, if you've ever had a job where you had a long commute, an hour, hour and a half, and then suddenly you change positions and your commute went back to 10 or 15 minutes, everyone I know who's had that [00:34:00] experience, and I had it myself once, you'd never want to go back to that 90 minute commute again.
And that happened to huge numbers of people because of the pandemic. Suddenly they saw a world where they didn't have to get in the car or board a train and sit there for 60 to 90 minutes. And there are all sorts of benefits that come from that, less stress, healthier life, you know, more time with your family and friends, uh, you know, maybe your childcare expenses go down. Once you make that change, it's really hard to get people to come back.
Kelly Cherwin: You didn't see that trivia coming, did you?
Andrew Hibel: I did not. I was, I was, I was hopeful it was not White Sox trivia. That's not the sort of trivia we want to talk about on the podcast. I thought when Mac was like, Andy, I thought he was going to say about the White Sox. I'm like, oh no, where are we going here?
Andrew Hibel: Well, Mac, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This has been wonderful to get to spend time with you folks out there listening, if you have questions or thoughts or reflections on this podcast, please email us at [00:35:00] podcast@HigherEdJobs.com or send us a direct message on X at higheredcareers. Mac, thank you for being with us. We look forward to the next time.
Mac Pritchard: It's been a pleasure. Thank you, Andy and Kelly
Kelly Cherwin: Thanks, Mac. It was fun.
Andrew Hibel: And thank you for listening. We look forward to talking soon