Andy Hibel 0:03
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the Chief Operating Officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Mike Walker 0:09
And I'm Mike Walker, the producer of the HigherEdJobs podcast. Today we have Dr. Greg White speaking with us. Dr. White is the director of the traditional undergraduate nursing program and an associate professor at the College of Saint Scholastica. In addition to being a veteran, he is an advanced practice registered nurse with multiple role experience, including pre-hospital flight and military medicine, emergency and critical care nursing, as well as nursing education and leadership as the faculty lead for the Veteran to Peace and Nursing Program. He works with cohorts of veterans and currently serving military members to promote veteran nursing student success through individualized advising and counseling, and recognition of existing leadership and clinical skills throughout their progress in the traditional undergraduate nursing program. Let's rejoin the conversation where we left off in the last episode.

Andy Hibel 1:03
Maybe kind of using that frame of reference, ask the next question is somebody who was trained as a lawyer and then practice and plant giving for nonprofits. My biggest tool, my toolbox, has always been questions, the questions that I'm able to ask and get answered that help further my knowledge. Asking that next question for somebody, particularly in this part of the role, but probably in any of the areas where you practice your trade is probably essential, but I'm really not sure how essential it is, how much questions, something that you're looking in your toolbox and how far are they coming up in the front of the toolbox? That's what you're going to before you go to another tool.

Greg White 1:47
I think when students start asking questions, it shows that they are either working to assimilate a new set of knowledge and skills or they're there and they want to apply it to things they've experienced. The majority of the Ukrainians that we worked with there were in this course, the vast majority of them were combat veterans already. And so they're retraining to be something else. And so if you were to take the time and listen to their experiences or listen to the context of their question, you know, asking what would I do if I see this again? And so there's a lot of really difficult conversations, not just because everybody speaks through a translator, but there's a lot of very difficult conversations and understanding the reality of what these soldiers are facing, which is something that honestly we haven't seen since World War One. You know, it's been a hundred years and here we are again. So I think especially with those students, I mean, if you can foster that light of curiosity or you can answer their questions, those are the students that you know are going to try to put in that work to be better and to save more lives. That was one of the most surreal moments is when we were working with the Norwegians and they're evaluating students in a private way. I mean, some of the feedback that came up is like, here's the strengths, here's the weaknesses, but this person will save a lot of lives. Here's the strengths, here's the weaknesses. But, you know, this person is going to save a lot of lives. It's a it's a very real thinking about what the soldiers have already gone back to and that the next step was straight to work. So there is no grace period. There is no soft landing. These soldiers are going to be expected to go right back to war with really no break. And I think that was evident in how they were behaving in class, how they were invested, how they were working hard, because I think they knew it, too. Their job is to go back home and save a lot of lives. And yeah, it was a it was a very eye opening and honestly likely the most important thing I've ever done in my career.

Andy Hibel 3:46
I think maybe one of the things you're able to do pretty simply in any practice where probing questions are helping you acquire knowledge to make better decisions is go through a process where you have the luxury of time to do it. When you're medic out working in a battle situation time may not be something you have a lot of. You might be limited by time, and the ability to use those questions might be curtailed. Is that a different process for them to learn how to apply that literally? Not in the field, as we use in a very colloquial way here about careers, but literally in the battlefield, that when they need to get information from somebody, if they have the ability to, how can they do so quickly? I guess I'm curious to that because to me, so much of the practice of medicine is a back and forth between the patient and the practitioner. And without that, and with so much on the line, including their own lives, is there something different that they're able to do that they're able to acquire through those practical experiences that you guys were able to offer?

Greg White 4:57
Yeah. So combat medicine is quick and it's I don't want to devolved because it's actually evolved to be somewhat algorithmic How do we identify things very, very quickly? How do we treat them very, very quickly, and how do we get this person to safety? And these soldiers are trained very well to do that. I think the next question is the one that I'm talking about are much more, you know, what do we do if we can't get them out? What can we do if we have to stay with these patients? How do we know if something's going wrong or how do we best take care of them? So questions on sepsis, on whole body infection, questions on evolving brain injuries, questions on those kind of things of what can we do with what we have? And so a lot of the questions that were asked were, how do I put something that I'm learning into practice and in a more advanced way? And those were amazing questions. And honestly, they showed a lot of urgency, like, how do I do this if I'm by myself or how do I take care of somebody? If evac isn't something that's going to be happening quickly?

Andy Hibel 5:58
I think one of the things you said a while back was how this is the first time since World War One we've seen this type of combat. Could you explain that a little bit further? Because I'm not sure I quite understood that.

Greg White 6:09
Sure. I'd encourage anybody who's interested to read the news and to look at what's happening in Ukraine. But drone warfare and the resurgence of artillery or heavy artillery use has really changed what this war looks like. We have two relatively modern militaries that have started a war, and it's ended with trench warfare. Again. And how do you how do you fight? How do you live? How do you train? How do you treat a patient in that kind of environment? It was all really eye opening and looking at how, you know, technology and how it's used in the ease of access for technology like drones has really impacted what war may look like in the future. And so for us, it is really eye opening, too, and really valuable to because hearing these stories, hearing these experiences and trying to apply them to the war that we know in the U.S., where we've always had very, very fast and capable evacuation, we've always had air superiority, never needed to look up, you know, that kind of warfare may not always be the case. And trying to train people who have a different context for your knowledge and trying to take what, you know, take how you know how to take care of people and apply it to the experiences that these soldiers are having. The best way I can describe it is, you know, it's trench warfare. It's World War One. Again. And how do we insert modern medicine in an area where last time we did this, penicillin didn't exist?

Andy Hibel 7:35
Wow. That's quite eye opening when you think of it that way. Earlier, you mentioned that you believe that this was the most influential experience of your life. Can you explain that further?

Greg White 7:48
I am a teacher and I love teaching and I love seeing the lights turn on when you explain a concept and students get it and they actually get it and they can start applying where they're going. I love taking the knowledge that I have and experiences that I have and putting it into that education to get that point across and make it more interesting and get students excited about where they are, that the gravity of what we were doing and the students we were working with and the students that NATO partners from around the world are working with. When you see the lights turn on for these soldiers, you know that the lights turned on and they're going to be using this. You know that everything you do has a real life purpose. Everything that you're doing, they're going to use to save the lives of many, many others. And not that that doesn't exist with the nursing, but it's longer it's a slower impact.

Andy Hibel 8:36
That makes a lot of sense.

Greg White 8:37
You know, these students are going to go straight into the war and they're going to make a difference. And again, if that difference is getting people home to see their families, you know, that's the noble calling and that's why I chose medicine. That's why I chose medicine in the military. It doesn't matter the conflict. Does it matter? Your motivation doesn't matter. Your rationale. If your job is to get people home and your job is to keep them alive, that's a noble calling. And for these guys, that noble calling was right away. And the urgency to get there and their attentiveness and their desire to save their others and maybe, you know, right or wrong, for those who had lost friends who were there already, you know, there's just a very, very real it was very, very gritty. It was very, very tangible. The impact that these soldiers are going to have.

Mike Walker 9:22
For more than 80 years, Stars and Stripes has been with you on the front lines, reporting the news and stories impacting the military community. From breaking news to providing vital resources for education services, transitioning from military life and financial guides. We will continue to be with you wherever you are. Stay up to date with the number one independent source for military news at Stripes.com.

Andy Hibel 9:45
I think on the professional side, kind of taking all that, what do you think you can take from the experience and bring back to the students that you're seeing at the College of Saint Scholastica And in what ways do you think you can convey those messages to them from this experience?

Greg White 10:01
I think when you have a good story, you're obligated to tell it. And if you can, if you can show people the difference that you can make, if you teach the difference you can make, if you can apply what you know and you can break it down to a level of where somebody is at, you know, professionally for nursing students, I think that's a great lesson. I think for me, the biggest impact was working with the team and integrating with the team. We'd never met and honestly, my team, we met at the airport. We didn't know each other either before leaving. And that ability to quickly integrate and get on the same page and to work to build or improve something together. Nurses are all teachers. Medics are all teachers, and getting people in that mindset of, you know, you can be amazing, you can be a wonderful medic, you can be a wonderful nurse, and you can take care of a lot of people and save a lot of lives. But the ability to teach others to do the same makes your impact exponentially larger. And so I think those real stories of what you can do as a nurse and what these people are experiencing, if they can shed some light on the conflict and if I can convey some urgency in the fact that we need teachers to and convince even one or two of these students to go forward and to look at dedicating their time, dedicating their efforts to building something better, I think that's going to be a win for me.

Andy Hibel 11:19
When you have a chance to use your talents in a way that brings meaning to your life, that makes a difference in other people's lives, that's kind of that's kind of something truly, for lack of a better term, magical. I think that creates a meaning in the work that you're able to do that that's not just going there and having a good career and being professionally successful and collecting a good paycheck, but actually kind of having, if I can, your soul, be in complete alignment with your actions and really make something that really makes a lasting impression. You recently back just a few days now and you've had a chance to to see your kids, see your wife. What did you say when you first saw your kids and they asked you, Hey, Dad, what do you do over there? What was it like?

Greg White 12:09
It was the first time I've come home where my, my oldest son had cried when I came home when he saw me. That was really meaningful. That was really special. You know, getting to the age in my career where more absences there more impactful to my family. And so being mindful of that. But, you know, in talking to my wife and talking to my kids, you know, this is one of the only instances my wife told me that if they get the opportunity to go back, I should. Even if it means I'm gone. So conveying the importance to me or the impact, I think for my wife, she understood and she understood the importance of doing this not just to me, but to the world. I mean, this is one of the few times in the last decade that I felt like I made a dent in something way bigger than me. With my kids. I mean, there almost 11 and almost nine, telling them about the war, telling them about the people I was taking care of and telling them that, you know, essentially what I said to you is I'm helping teach people how to save lives. I'm talking about the individuals that I met as well. I mean, the one thing that was absolutely amazing is every single one of those soldiers looked like a guy or a girl that you just see around, you know, sitting in a coffee shop. They're normal people exposed to extraordinary things. It's totally contrary to the idea. When you think of a military medic, you think of a war fighter. You think of, you know, this hard young man or a young woman who is a hard charger, who is, you know, muscular, who is big, who is strong, who's ready to take on the world. You know, the soldiers that we were working with were from all walks of life, and they're all types. And being able to see them coming together and work to defend their home and the way that they were best suited to do it really was also, really eye opening for me. So just even describing the men and women that I met and saying, you know, these are normal people, these are very, very hard, but love to laugh, very, very serious. But we'll joke with each other or want to talk or want to tell their story, even though sometimes their story makes you go pale. They want to share. They want people to know. And I think that was a really valuable experience. Something that when my kids are a little older, I may share more. But I think in general, just the idea that their dad was making a difference, why I was gone and why it was important that I was there was the message. I think my kids understood.

Andy Hibel 14:37
Do you remember? So the first time we met, we were at this conference in February of 2020 and you and a colleague were sitting behind myself and a colleague, and we kind of turned around to you guys. Can I get some clarification, ask a few questions, and kind of had a slightly less structured conversation than would just have a very similar conversation to what we just had. And you recommended a book that I needed to read to better understand the entire experience of serving in the military. Do you remember what that book was.

Greg White 15:08
Tribe by Sebastian Junger.

Andy Hibel 15:10
It was, and one of the first things I did during COVID was read that book very, very quickly. Which is not something I normally do. Will you please, in closing. Share with people in our community what was so important about that book and why? If you want to understand better what this experience is, why was that the book that you insisted I read?

Greg White 15:32
We talk about how in the U.S. military is a true representation of our civilization, of our people. It's people from all walks of life, all backgrounds, all ethnicities, all genders, all orientation, and all coming together for a common cause. But with that, we bring our backgrounds with us. We bring who we were before or who we were before service. into that service with us and helps inform our service. And sometimes it can hinder. The thing about that book, about Tribe, that was really resonating for me was talking about when you build a sense of community like that and you leave it like when we talk about veterans leaving the service, we talk about veterans coming home from war. And this is really evident in the National Guard because they come home and they go home, which may be hours and hours apart from the next guy or the next girl they've worked with. So this idea of taking this tight community, taking this group, this family or this tribe, and then you pull people out of it, what that does to our soldiers, our airmen and Marines or sailors. And how do we adapt and how do they adapt to this? I think the important thing about that book is it humanizes our veterans. It talks about these experiences, not just everybody has PTSD, but, you know, people are grieving or they're struggling to adapt. But it really focuses on this idea that we may have heroes. I have friends who are heroes. I have friends who wear their service like a chip on their shoulder. And so you have that classic idea in the U.S. that you have your heroes. You put in a pedestal on your broken veterans, that you feel bad for. And the reality is that 99% are somewhere in between. This idea that we try to place people in a box on either side I think is detrimental because, you know, we were humans coming into this, we were Americans coming into this. We had a family coming into this. And when we come out, we have that, too. We just have to try to adapt what we know, what was learned. And then also grieve leaving that unit, leaving that family, leaving those people who've kept your head above water for so long. And the last day with the Ukrainians, we kind of got to say our goodbyes. And it was a very emotional day for myself and my team. I told them a little bit of that story, actually. It said, you know, in the U.S., we say that the military is representative of our society, that all people are represented in the U.S. military. And I told them that if you are the same and you are Ukraine, I don't think anybody will be able to take it from you because the men and woman, again, they were they're amazing people, but they were every man. They're just there to fight for their home, to save their brothers and sisters and to hopefully make a difference and to make a free Ukraine.

Andy Hibel 18:18
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That's incredible. I can see why it's impactful. And I think that the best part is I look forward to talking like six months and seeing how it's changed and informed your experience in the classroom and with your colleagues.

Greg White 18:34
One of my colleagues actually from a different department, today asked me if I was doing okay, and I am. But, you know, I'm so much more invested in the news, somewhat more invest in the stories. And I think that I'm fine. But a lot of these guys were coming from situations and from units where they were lucky to be alive and their plan was to go back. So that was really tough, making these relationships and getting some trust and getting some, you know, we brought cigarettes, we Ukrainians, culturally, we're one of the interpreters. The men smoke a lot. And so we brought cigarettes with us. I brought Marlboro Reds. I brought cowboy killers. And I got permission from my wife to start smoking for a little bit. And I would sit outside and offer them a cigarette and have a cigarette with them. And just even that, even though the same languages are spoken, we try to communicate some spoke some pretty broken English, but that ability to just stand outside, take that deep breath with them. I think that yeah.

Andy Hibel 19:40
I think it's hard because you just went through an experience like when you're a kid, you grow and you have those growing pains and your whole body doesn't quite feel the same as it did weeks ago. And you're like, What's going on? Your soul just went through that man like that. How can you ever go back to what it was like a month ago or two months ago?

Greg White 20:00
Yeah.

Andy Hibel 20:01
On that note, Greg, I really appreciate your time and I thank you truly for not only the work you've done, but also for sharing that with us. If you have questions, please email us at podcast at HigherEdJobs.com or send us a direct message on X @higheredcareers.

Mike Walker 20:23
Thanks for listening. We look forward to talking soon.