Andy Hibel 0:03
Welcome to the HighEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Monika Sziron 0:09
And I'm Monica Sziron a guest co-host. Today, I am the assistant director of Editorial Strategy for HigherEdMilitary, which is one of the sister sites of HigherEdJobs. today, we're so excited to have LeNaya Hezel with us, the chief programs officer at Warrior Scholar Project. And we just saw you in person over the summer. We enjoyed attending the Warrior Scholar Project Alumni Conference at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. So, it's good to see you on the show.

LeNaya Hezel 0:36
Thanks so much for having me.

Andy Hibel 0:38
It was nice to talk about careers in higher ed with Daniel Avalio from Western Governors University. He's also on our advisory council for HigherEdMilitary. And we got to have the pleasure of having join us for the session. So, thank you for coming and spending some time with us there

LeNaya Hezel 0:51
Course. No, thanks again for making the trip out to Urbana, Champaign. It was great to see you all. And we had some great conversations with practitioners and alumni and student veterans who are considering higher education. So it was a great time all around.

Monika Sziron 1:06
So fun. It was a great time. So jumping into maybe our first topic here, Andy had mentioned that at the conference, we talked about careers in higher education for veterans, military spouses, military connected. And so we would love to hear from you being a military spouse based on your experience, why is higher education a great career option to explore for the military connected space?

LeNaya Hezel 1:29
Yeah, it's a great question. And I think it really comes down to Universities, college campuses, whether they're physical or virtual, they're mini cities. And when you think about serving in the military and if you're on base or, you know, connected to a base, it's a mini city. And that means they're going to be objectives in terms of like what you need to do at that base or it's specialty no different than a college or university. They have their specialties, but because it's an infrastructure, you need people to manage the buildings. You need people to be able to manage teams, you need people to be able to oversee facilities, things of that nature. There are things beyond just teaching at a university. And so knowing that there are many jobs in the military, there are things that are transferable in the higher education space as well. And then on top of that, maybe it is teaching there are instructors in terms of how to teach somebody to be able to do their next MOS or their next job assignment. And so there are practices and pedagogy that is learned in that process as well. And so I will even say, like even growing up and going to college, my undergraduates in vocal performance, if you had told me I was going into higher education, I would have been What's that's a job? And I think a lot of people think about that in the military as well as being like, Wait, you can work at a university and not necessarily be a professor. So, I think that that is one of the benefits. It's also beneficial to have military connected folks working at universities because of our diverse experiences, because of our leadership, our resiliency, being able to really put something together with some, you know, MacGyver shoe laces and a matchstick and a paperclip to be able to make something work because there's just not enough funding to be able to do something. And so I think that there are added benefits to having military connected folks working at universities as well. And so if it's mutually beneficial, why is it not something that's more considered, more often?

Monika Sziron 3:42
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we can jump into the fact that you were a nominee for our Higher Ed Military Spotlight award this year, from our advisory council. They pick those who are doing innovative work in this space, and obviously you're doing that. You were recognized for your work with Warrior Scholar Project, but also your work in higher education, as well. So could you talk a little bit about your career path and how it's been shaped as a military spouse yourself?

LeNaya Hezel 4:09
Yeah, Well, first off, thank you for the nomination. It was, you know, very honoring to be recognized by folks that, you know, aren't my parents or, you know, my spouse, you know. So I appreciate that. But yeah, I similarly to a lot of veterans who are making transition, had a very windy path. And I think that's actually one of the benefits that I've had making connections with student veterans over the years. So I'm a nationally trained opera singer. I started singing at I was in middle school by that point, but nationally I started singing towards eighth grade and went to an arts high school. And at a very young age I was like, This is what I'm going to do. And so I went to the University of Maryland College Park, got my undergraduate in vocal performance. And at that time I met a guy Who was a midshipman at the Naval Academy. Looking real cute in his whites

Monika Sziron 5:07
Of Course,

LeNaya Hezel 5:08
And this was our senior year and that really opened up the world of like, okay, military as, you know, somebody to support. And so fast forward, we were stationed out on the West Coast when the post-9-11 GI Bill came into effect. And because I was a musician, I had a real job working in residence life. And so a number of his crewmates were like, Hey, you work at University of Washington? I was like, I work in housing. Like, oh, like I you know, let's let's be clear of what I do. And they're like, but this GI Bill that just came out, like, I have a lot of questions and like, I want to know how to do it. And I was like, okay, well, the Navy should be able to like, walk you through that. And they were like, Yeah, no, they're essentially just pointing at each other being like, This is how you get information. And then I was like, Okay, well, the university should be able to walk you through it. And that was just as complicated, and that was my aha moment. I was like, All right, if I'm going to like, stick with this guy and marry him and, you be a military spouse, we're going to be moving from place to place to place. And one thing that's going to be constant is education. And so that was my aha moment to make a career pivot DC see brought us back here at the Pentagon. And so I got my master's in Higher Education Administration focusing on military connected students and still this was really early. We're talking about 2009, 2010. And so, George Washington University was one of the few private schools that had an established resource, you know, services and things like that beyond benefits. And so I got to learn from the ground up. What does it look like to support this population at a private school beyond just certifying benefits? And it was chaotic because, you know, as we all remember back in those days, processing benefits was really challenging, but it was rewarding in terms of being like, okay, there is a need here. There is something that is untapped potential. And these are, students that are really bringing in benefits, not just the financial benefits, but like to the classrooms benefits,

Monika Sziron 7:19
Right?

LeNaya Hezel 7:19
And that was really, really cool. So I oversaw the veterans office at Georgetown University for a number of years and then left in 2020 to pursue my Ph.D. I just defended and got it in sociology at George Mason University. So if you're not keeping track, I'm connected to all of the George's, in somecapacity but that was also looking at military connected students in higher education specifically. So how do you universities structure services and resources for military connected students? And depending on how they're structured, how are they getting information? Who are they getting information from? So social and cultural capital, and it's been fun. It's been really fun because, again, it ties in to it's an untapped, student population in terms of what we know about them, how we best support them, because they really didn't get put on the radar until 2009 when the floodgates opened in terms of accessibility to higher education. Very long answer to a very short question.

Monika Sziron 8:22
No, that's great. And you've lived it, right? Like you've worked it, you've lived it, you've experienced it. So that's all great.

Andy Hibel 8:27
I just want make sure for for one small note at the beginning of that question. Don't thank us for the nomination. That's your peers nominating you. We don't do the nominating here. And success seems to follow you, as I think you were also a leadership scholar in the George W Bush Institute to Stand in veteran leadership program, which is another amazing accolade to your professional talents. speaking of your doctoral program recently posted on LinkedIn about that research, studying how university is structured, veteran and military connected student resources on campus. Based on your research, these services are mostly used by undergraduate and VA work-study students. What can university administrators do to graduate students or others who can benefit from support services?

LeNaya 9:16
Yeah, it's a great, great question. And I'll admit, you know, I defended back in May and I sat for a very long time in terms of making public announcements about what my findings were, because I knew it would ruffle some feathers a bit. And I can take criticism. It's not a matter of like that. It was just more of this idea for the longest time, having a veterans resource center or military connected student Resource Center on campus has always been deemed as the Gold Star standard to being veteran, inclusive or military inclusive. And what my findings showed was that there are different ways to support the student population. That doesn't necessarily mean it has to be a resource center. And so what I was sharing there was I looked at two specific resource centers, one that was at a private university and another one that was at a public university. And in both cases, folks that were using the Center for Social Connection looking to, engage with others and, build camaraderie, were undergraduate students. And then in a lot of cases, those that were there consistently were the ones that were either VA work studies or they were part of the student leadership in terms of like Student Veterans of America chapters and things like that. Everyone else was really it was either hit or miss or when you looked at the larger population of how many military connected students that they were serving on that campus, it was a very, very small percentage. And so it led me to ask the question, well, why is it only primarily undergraduate students are using it? And then when you think about where they are in the transition process, they're most likely newest to transitioning. Whereas graduate students in a lot of cases, depending on the school, I won't say that this is necessarily broad stroke, but a lot of graduate students who identify as military connected their transition is different. And in a lot of cases they're very well resourced outside of, degree program or the degree program is offering that same amount of social connection. we think about a lot of the MBA programs, how many like veteran subgroups there are of that, that's where they're getting it. It's not a physical resource space that they need it. And that's not to say that we need to have graduate students in the resource center. The fact that they're getting it somewhere else that is great. Or if they're not getting it, then that's something that we need to look into a little bit further. And so that's what was the aha moment in terms of, okay, it's predominantly one type of student demographic, those that recently just transitioned out of the military and they are really needing the extra wraparound services. And what I found in one of the centers is what they did a really good job is really bringing in other university stakeholders to start bridging the gap so that way little start going out of the center and using the other parts of campus and not necessarily you know, staying in a bunker of sorts only at that center. So, that's what I was really trying to push for. And I get it literally have worked in the space for a long time. I thought that that is what every university should have. And it really took me a long time for me to realize, Oh, there's other ways for us to be successful in supporting this population. It just depends on who's on your campus. And what resources are already available on campus. and again, it's really hard because we do so much of this work. We sometimes wrap our identities around like I support veterans and therefore if I'm supporting veterans this way and only this way, if somebody critiques being like, well, w if there's another way that we can support them, then there can be some tension there and that's not going after the positions itself. It's just more of structurally, are we supporting military connected students and veterans in a way that makes sense for that campus? Because a campus, as we mentioned earlier, is a city. There's other resources, there's other services. There might be external resources off campus because, you know, there's other VSOs in the area that you can partner with and collaborate that instead of reinventing the wheel, how can we build an ecosystem to best support them? So that was kind of the take away. But you know, it's LinkedIn, so you can only say it in so many words.

Andy Hibel 13:47
I think what's so amazing about that and that perspective, when you look at inclusivity today, inclusivity can be fueled by places, physical places. But it's really fueled by a culture that permeates organization And one of the things, and I credit the veteran and the military connected populations for this is it does not tolerate fake inclusivity well. So, when these efforts are made by schools that don't quite add up to actual culture, I think schools are held accountable quite quickly by this population. Have you seen instances where you feel, okay, a school has been called on and they're trying to now recover from this not failed attempt, but not perfectly executed attempt at doing this. What would you offer as some tips off the top of your head of these are things that you could be doing that make a huge difference at that point to show the commitment to not necessarily having the culture because you can't just get there immediately, but building the culture.

LeNaya Hezel 14:55
Oh, well. Oh goodness. How much time do we have on this podcast? And so it really gets to, and it's a really, really good question. And you know, I'm going to do my best to not curse because essentially what you're calling out is military connected students and veterans can really spot B.S. real quick and will, sometimes blunt, but then sometimes not so blunt ways is be able to call it out. And I think that's one of the things we saw back in 2009, 2010 when the post-9-11 GI Bill started going out. And it was absolute chaos like it was student veterans that were the most vocal about how this was impacting them. And I think that that really set the tone of this is a population that is more than just processing benefits. But structurally, that's what universities are held accountable for. Are you, certifying benefits? Are you making sure that students are aware of how benefits are being used? Are students aware of knowing what their out-of-pocket expenses are and things like that? Everything else is subjective and it isn't necessarily scrutinized by the Department of Veterans Affairs or Department of Education. And so what do universities focus on on the benefits? And that's where we get into this concept of culture. If we're thinking about, well, we want to make this place inclusive for military connected students, but we're only focusing on the benefits. Well, let's face it, these students are engaging with faculty, other students, other administrators. Everybody outside of the school certifying official. So how are they made aware in terms of what it means to support this population or what processes are we creating on campus that are more for traditionally college students then compared to the nontraditional students? So, to answer your question, is there a case or an example of where maybe universities maybe didn't put their money, where their mouth is in some capacity is when universities start structuring services and resources external to the university. Or research opportunities like we're going to do this like institution hub to understand how, military connected veterans and so forth are able to work When they haven't cleaned up in house in terms of how are we supporting our students internally to feel supported or have the academic resources they need to be successful. So I've seen that get called out a couple of times where, what I call the shiny object is, is when higher education administrators see and this was definitely at the peak of, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan being like, oh, there's a lot more research that we need to do in this area. So let's create some form of research center. And there was a incentives to be able to create that. We're academic institutions, we research, we care about this population. And yet there wasn't necessarily an investment of services and resources for the students that were attending that institution. So I've seen that play out and students get really vocal about that. I think the other area that I've also seen this play out and it kind of gets to the earlier question where it comes out is investment of resources to support this population when it comes to the Yellow ribbon program. Universities can structure how much they and can break it down and be really nerdy out in terms of how the Yellow Ribbon program works.

Andy Hibel 18:28
Yeah please do.

LeNaya Hezel 18:30
So the Yellow Ribbon program is a Department of Veterans Affairs benefit that tacked on to the post-9-11 GI Bill. So if you are a service member, veteran or military family member, that is 100% eligible for post-9-11 GI Bill benefits and you're attending a school, either as an out-of-state student or attending a private school. There's a cap as to how much the post-9-11 tuition benefits will pay out. And so the universities can opt into a deal where any remaining cost that is not covered by the post-9-11 GI Bill, the VA and institution will split the remaining costs up to a certain dollar amount or could cover it in full, for tuition and fees. But universities get to set how many students, there's a cap as to how many students can participate in the program. And universities can also set how much money they can contribute that they'll split with the VA. And so some universities, depending on the structure, how much they contribute for undergraduate students compared to graduate programs, can vary because sometimes graduate schools, if you really want to nerd out about higher ed like they each own, have their own budget. And so the School of Medicine will have its own amount, the School of Business will have its own amount, and then undergraduate is just like a mixing bowl and they have its own amount. But where I saw this really interestingly play out is, is we're committed to veterans and military connected students to get their higher education. And yet the Yellow Ribbon program numbers vary drastically across the institution. And what it showed was is that there was an investment in a lot of cases for graduate programs. So graduate education, but not necessarily for undergraduates. Or, that we are prioritizing one degree program type, business school, compare to an arts and science degree program. And so that's where I've also seen veterans get really vocal about being like, Well, are we really talking about how supportive you are? Because if I have a choice in what I want to study and what my career goals are. I'm limited in terms of like what I can financially afford because there isn't an equitable process on campus in terms of reducing the out-of-pocket expenses, for me, because the university isn't necessarily contributing in the same way. So that's a way that I've seen universities struggle a little bit. So that'll be interesting to see how that plays out, especially with the more conversations that we have about financial access to higher education in today's, arena. Because that's always been the argument is, is like, oh, you want student veterans on campus because they come with benefits. But then there's a hook. It depends on what do all those benefits cover, the costs is required to go to school there. So.

Monika Sziron 21:18
Oh my gosh, my brain is spinning. I have so many things that I want to talk about now. There's no way we have enough time. Well, I love that you brought up Yellow Ribbon first thing, because I think the Yellow Ribbon also can cause problems for state schools. Because you'll have students that come in and say, I can't believe that you're not Yellow Ribbon. And they're like, Well, we don't have to be because our tuition is already capped at the limit of the GI Bill. So you don't need it here,

LeNaya Hezel 21:40
right?

Monika Sziron 21:40
So I've seen the yellow ribbon kind of cause problems on both sides of the equation. So that's just a little side comment there. But I want to go back. You mentioned, how structurally campuses can, create their veteran military support services. And what I think has been really nice in the last several years is seeing campuses start to branch out and test and try new structures. And I think that that's been really encouraging for me to see. schools saying, you know what we've been trying this for the past ten years and coming to our damn center. What are we going to do? And so you have schools like Austin Peay. I think George Washington is also doing a lot of really innovative things with supporting these spaces. And they're like, We're just going to throw it at the wall, see if it sticks and try this because it's not been working. So I think that that hopefully in the next several years we see campuses kind of branch out and do the things you're saying. Like let's get more involved with these other groups on campuses and these other offices and branch out and and hey, guess what? We can probably utilize each other's budgets and work together to create these events and, you know, etc., etc.. But I think that leans into one of the big issues in higher ed professionals that serve military connected students is that there's so much burnout happening right now. in the profession itself. And I think one of the key things that we always, preach and say in this space is like you have to branch out. You cannot hold this on your shoulders alone, veteran directors, you should not be the only person on your campus supporting the weight of every student veteran that's enrolled. So I would love to hear what advice you would have for those that are working in higher ed right now to kind of alleviate some of that burnout. You know, what does that mean if it's working with VSOs? Is where can you go right now if someone came to you, LeNaya? And was like, I'm so burnt and I'm What am I supposed to do? I know that's a really tough question.

Andy Hibel 23:35
Tack on to it and just say, oh, let's address that. But let's let's also not discourage people who might be going this field. And what would your advice be for them, for people who are aspiring to have of these more challenging roles.

LeNaya Hezel 23:49
There's a two sided coin here. And Monika, you really hit the nail on the head in terms of this concept that if Veteran's is in your title, I've seen this play out. If international students is in your title, all international student information goes to you or all international questions go to you. Women's center you know if anybody brings up gender okay it goes to the women's center kind of thing. And I kid you not this happens with admissions. A veteran will call admissions and they would have a question about the general admissions process. Okay, I'm going to transfer you over to the veterans office. And it was like, no. They have a question about admissions. And so what that leads to and what that gets to is this idea and this is what we were speaking about earlier, if the expectation is just because somebody has veteran or military connected as an identity, yes, we're there to support them. But culturally, we all should have buy in to be able to support them. Not just the person that has that identity in their job title to be able to support them. And at the same time, what is very common amongst and I say this as a military spouse and I've seen it with supporting my spouse when he does it himself is we have this idea of it's hard to ask for help. And so therefore we put it upon ourselves to be like, all right, I'm just going to do it all. And, you know, not necessarily be able to say, well, how can I leverage some of the relationships on campus? But it's a really great question especially depending on where your unit falls, is it under student affairs, is it under academic affairs, is it under the provost directly, you that can also shape well, who am I partnering with? Is it more of a focus of supporting and building connection outside of the classroom? And if so, then what are some other resource centers that are on campus to be able to support and, create? To your point, let's do a program together and we can share cost and things like that. But if it's an academic affairs and it's more about what're the whether it's career services or it is more academic focus, what are some specific tailored programs that we can do being very intentional of the time of year that you provide it? It's one thing to provide like, let's do a workshop on note taking and things like that, and you wait until November to do it. Well, kind of late. They needed it back in like September probably, But those are some opportunities to leverage. Well, who are your experts on campus that have a good sense of what it means to be military connected and will be able to provide those resources so that way students are being successful. But it comes down to the other thing, and I've always found this really helpful. When I was at Georgetown, we had a a large committee of essentially folks in different aspects of the university. We had admissions, we had different resource centers, we had financial aid, the registrar, but then also career services and things like that. and we also brought in the voices of student veterans and military connected students of like where where are the challenges happening? Like,where are you as a student facing some challenges that you just kind of need some administrative stuff for us to work through to make it more accessible for you? One of the key examples that I can give is admissions. We were finding that student veterans would start the application but then not finish, and we were like, Well, what what's happening here? And come to find out. A lot of applicants were self-selecting out. And so then we were like, okay, well, how can we engage students, maybe some of our student groups, to be able to do outreach and say, Hey, we see that you started your application, what questions do you have? And really leaning into some of that. But none of that would have happened if we weren't all at the table to like problem solve and be innovative, but then also hear feedback of what was working and what wasn't working. And it did not fall just to me. The labor was shared amongst all of us because we had an invested interest in being able to do that. the way that I got buy in from other folks is I often said I was like, If I'm not here tomorrow, Are you as a university, prepare to be able to support this population? Because if the answer is no, because it is dependent on one individual, then that is not military inclusive, that is not veteran inclusive, that is people specific. Like if you want it to be cultural, we're going to have to work towards it being cultural where

everyone is invested and has the buy in to want to support this population through their respective expertise and what they're good at. And that that seemed to really, really be functional and really made some impact in some ways.

Andy Hibel 28:41
I think we go, we have to ask about this as a final question, because I think not only are we at HigherEdJobs and HigherEdMilitary, a big fans of the Warrior Scholar Project, but wife Elizabeth and I have also personally supported the efforts of the organization and are just enamored with the work that you all do. So before you leave, how does the Warrior Scholar Project stay innovative and creative in its efforts to support servicemembers and veterans for success in higher education Institutions are both large and small.

LeNaya Hezel 29:15
So I'm going to back up a little bit in terms of how I got connected with Warrior Scholar Project from the start. So during my time at Georgetown oversaw the Veterans office, I was in the role, I want to say, a month. And then WSP was on campus. And I was like, What did I sign up for? Like, I have no business helping this national program. Do bootcamp for a week with 15 participants, student veterans that don't even to Georgetown. So like, what am I doing here? And I want to say it was by like day two. I was like, This program has some magic that I've never seen anywhere else. And what we do as an organization, we serve enlisted veterans who are in some cases interested in higher education, but just don't know what they want to study or do they have the chops to do so. And then we have others. They've already been admitted, but they've been out of school for a while and really want to get their feet wet. And then there are others. like, My buddy asked me to Come here. I have no idea what I signed up for. And they're the ones that are actually the most fun to watch throughout the week. But we have three curriculums. We have a humanities curriculum, we have a STEM curriculum that's physics based, and then we have a business and entrepreneurship curriculum. And throughout the week they're taught by university professors on the theme. So like for humanities, it's democracy. And so they're taught by a classics professor, they're taught by, you know, a democratic law professor.And then there's one about, civil unrest and how democracy is tested. And then there's another one about military and civilian divide. And so they're taught by the university instructors. And that in of itself is eye opening for many of the participants, being like, oh my gosh, this Georgetown professor or this Cornell professor, this Stanford professor is really interested in like, I'm having a debate with them. And that's what really starts to, build their confidence. And then in the latter part of the day, they work with either tutors or research project leaders or folks that are familiar with business pitch cases and things like that where they're able to apply what they tangibly learn in the morning seminars and then work towards either writing a paper or completing a research project or business pitch case. And that a way to actually exercise the tool. Throughout all of this, they are kind of shepherd through the program by other student veterans and WSP alumni. And this is the secret sauce to the program where literally they are being supported by other student veterans that sat in the seats that they're sitting in either a year before or two years prior and know exactly what that feeling feels like. And now they're all enrolled at some college or university and have that experience and can talk through. Yup. What you're feeling is normal. I hear you. I think we should get you connected to talk with so-and-so. They might be a good resource for you. And despite the fact that WSP has been around as long as it has been to the point about innovation, I think this is kind of where we were talking about earlier, trying new things. That's a scary process. you know, higher ed, we joke all the time. It's an institution and therefore changing institutions are slow and take forever and they love their traditions. But as an outsider, as an organization, nonprofit, we have the opportunity to take in feedback each time we run a boot camp. And one thing that I give huge credit to, Ryan Pavel, our CEO is at the end of the summer before we all are so ready to take some PTO. We do a number of hot washes. And we do hot wash, in terms of what it was like as a staff member on site. What worked, what processes didn't work, What are some things that we should do differently? But then also a hot wash on the planning process? You know, what did that process look like? And then we deep dive into the curriculum. We have post core surveys. What worked well, what didn't make the mark. But what's really cool about how we do it is, is we engage not only with our alumni in a lot of these reflection processes throughout the year. But, I'll also give credit to Dr. Kasey Sanchez with our academic curriculum, is we're working with professors who are teaching the students that we are going to be eventually saying, hey, go apply to these universities, for them to provide insight like these are the skills that we're going to need students to know when they show up at the degree program. And it's not necessarily content based. We don't expect them to know Tocqueville on the back of their hands by the time that they're done. But do they know how to read analytically? Do they know how to be able to take notes during a lecture to then apply to when they're writing their paper? Do they know how to do time management. things that are like basic fundamentals to be able to be prepared to learn the content when they're ready to show up? And I think that is one of the ways that we're always, always going to we're not going to ask for data and then just sit it on a shelf. We are going to analyze it, we're going to review it. We're going to really take a look at what are the things that worked well, what are the things that. Okay, we're going to have to do that over again because that didn't work this time around. And I think those are some of the things that we do innovatively, because at the end of the day, higher education is also shifting the landscape of military connected students and support shifting. And so if we want to maintain as an organization, we're going to have to figure out, well, how do we shift with it and make meaning and make an impact in, the ecosystem that surrounds us. So that's probably how we would approach it. But it takes all of us. It's not just couple of us that are doing this work.

Monika Sziron 35:20
That's amazing. I love that. It's such an iterative process every time.

LeNaya Hezel 35:23
Yeah.

Andy Hibel 35:24
Well, thank you. And if I could, Dr. Hezel, really appreciate your time today. It was wonderful having you on the podcast. If folks out there have questions or thoughts that they'd like to share with us, please email us at podcast@HigherEdJobs.com or please feel free to send us a message on X @higheredcareers. And Monica, thank you for joining me today. Love to have you do this again. It was so much fun to be able to do this with you.

Monika Sziron 35:51
Yeah, get me talking about military connected veteran space and I won't stop talking. So we'll see. Thanks again, LeNaya.

LeNaya Hezel 35:59
Thanks so much for having me. It was great chatting with you

Andy Hibel 36:02
And we look forward to chatting with you all very soon.