Andy Hibel 0:01
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly Cherwin 0:07
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy. Today in the HigherEdJobs podcast. We welcome Dr. Winnie Kwolfie. Dr. Kwolfie has extensive executive leadership and management experience overseeing facilities management teams in both public and private higher education institutions. Her work in research and women in facilities management are highlighted in our HigherEdCareers interview that was just published this month at HigherEdJobs. Thank you for participating in that as well.

Winnie Kwolfie 0:33
Thank you.

Kelly Cherwin 0:34
Most recently, she was the associate vice president of Facilities Development and Operations at California State University, East Bay. For anyone who aspires to be a guest on the HigherEdJobs podcast, we want to make a note of this. When he was at the American Educational Research Association annual meeting last spring and met a few of our colleagues there and they connected us and we're so happy that we were talking today on the podcast. So thanks for joining us, Winnie.

Winnie Kwolfie 0:58
Thank you. Glad to be here.

Kelly Cherwin 1:00
So when he's an engineer by training and she recently successfully defended her doctoral dissertation in education with a focus on leadership for social justice. Congratulations again, Dr. Kwolfie.

Winnie Kwolfie 1:10
Thank you.

Kelly Cherwin 1:11
She is passionate about increasing awareness about the diverse and interesting roles in facilities management. When he also helped launch an organization within the Cal State University system to support women in this field. So let's start by discussing your definition of facilities management and how that may differ from what everyone else may think of or what the average person knows. You've described it as a profession that touches everyone on Earth. So what is your definition?

Winnie Kwolfie 1:38
Thank you, Kelly, for the question. I think, just like I said, it's a profession that touches everybody on Earth, and that is because facilities management integrates people processes in place together. Right. So I'm sure now you're in your office and you have a light, you have each back and you have everything going for you. That's the space you're doing your work, which is the process, and that's helping you get your goals. So that's what we do. But we're always behind the scenes and so most people see facilities, they only see the custodian that comes in and do the cleaning, but they don't see behind the scenes all the things that go into the planning of the facilities, the managing of the facilities, the maintenance of the facilities and everything in between, making sure it's compliant, making sure you're safe, making sure you're secured. And so that's makes it very difficult for most people because that's not what they see. The only see the people that come in and do the cleaning. And so that's, you know, the part of facilities that is exciting.

Kelly Cherwin 2:38
Well, thank you for that definition and for everyone listening. What are some roles that people may not know about in facilities management? I know you mentioned in the Higher Ed Cruise interview, you shared details on an engineering graduate who is struggling to find work and she didn't realize that she could be a fit for facilities management.

Winnie Kwolfie 2:53
So I think the interesting thing about facilities is that every profession, modern facilities, right? It's a people organization because I'm talking about how you integrate the people, the place and then the processes together. There's so much that goes into it. Let's start with this. One of my participants, who was an engineer, graduated and was looking for jobs and saw facilities and really didn't pay attention to it because they didn't know what it is like. We're trying to define now. So if you're an engineer like myself, a civil engineer, I didn't know about facilities until way back some time in my career when I accidentally landed in facilities. But I brought in my engineer in problem solving and also my engineering technical skills in mechanical engineering, in facilities. There's electrical engineering in facilities. We have I.T. in facilities. And what about budgets? Right. Who is running all your finances and giving you that view of how much operating budget you need to run your facilities on an annual basis, all your capital budget or what costs you need to put a site to build a building or a project or a repair work. So facilities this expanded profession that brings everybody all compliance, like the fire marshal who comes in to check the building to make sure that he's building compliant. All the fire department that makes sure that we have the access in case there's fire to get into the building and make people see. So it's this expanded profession of architects and planners and engineer and finance and business and everybody that comes in the profession. So that's one of the areas that make the profession one exciting and two, a little bit difficult to to know what it is. Because if you're going to medical school, you know, this is what I need to do. But then what profession do you need to getting to facilities become a question and what I've seen, especially in my research and in my interviews, is that every profession matter in facilities because it's such a big area which touches everybody and every profession.

Andy Hibel 4:58
Thank you, Winnie. When you think about the profession, you understand a sense of what it may be and a sense of some of the roles, but the breadth of the roles shocked me. Even currently, there's over 4200 open positions list on HigherEdJobs in facilities management. When I saw that number, that was shocking to me. For job seekers who might be interested in this area, what strengths are important in facilities management, including those for leadership roles? And I kind of asked for the flip side of that. What are some of the skills that are most attractive when people are looking to break into facilities management? The professionals in the field are really looking for?

Winnie Kwolfie 5:36
Yeah, that's very interesting. I actually looked at it today also in trying to figure out, okay, who are the people looking in your job board for jobs? And you're right. So I will answer this in three ways. So if we're looking at leadership for facilities, which is what I did my study on, I would say one people skills because we started with it touches everybody, right? And so you are literally touching people, the space in the process. So people skills is very, very important, right? Because you need to have the ability to take in how are people going to use the space. So example, we're doing this podcast. You do not want your custodians coming in cleaning behind you, right? So that's important in that logistical planning of the space to say you want somebody who understand that when we're doing this here is the temperature we need in the room. Here is the process we don't need to do in the room because of rather than just put people in. So you just do your job, you know, 85 So people skills is number one. And that's one of the reasons I think there's all kinds of people that are able to get into the profession. The second one that I think is very important is also business skills. And I don't think a lot of people talk about this very much. And I found that in my study that most of the people who were succeeding in facilities where people who understood the business of what they were doing and as well as the business of the organization they were serving. So, I mean, higher ed and I need to be able to understand what is the higher ed business right? So the academic mission and if that is the academic mission when our class is scheduled, and how can I align my services so that it maximize with that ability to use this space to serve the academic mission? And sometimes those things don't come very quickly. We talk about it in corporate, but in facilities we're like, Oh, it doesn't really matter. No, but it does matter because those are the skills that you want to bring. It's that business skills, right? That level to be able to understand what is the organization doing and not just say I'm doing my facilities in, not really going to do that. The other area that I think is very interesting is that you have to be an activist for the job, you know, and we don't talk about it that much. We always talk about the politics of it. Yes, the politics is important. But remember, like you said, facilities, it's a very hidden profession most people don't know. So for me to be able to love people, to be able to do it, that business, I need to be able to advocate, advocate, asking, having this conversation with you today where I'm sharing what facility is to the world and be able to advocate for being able for people to understand that there is a profession behind everything that starts from before you get to campus to your space. Right? And that needs to be put into that kind of thinking when we're doing business, right. And so those are the three that I would look at in leadership. When it comes to management, it becomes more of the process and we do have a lot of processes, right? We do have our custodial services, we do have our engineering maintenance services and on and on and on and those things. You need people who understand how those processes work, How do you align them, how do you resource for them, how do you recruit for them? Those are very, very important because sometimes we just put people in rules and say, Hey, let it work. Well, but no, it's complex. It's a very complex organization. So you need management that understand this principle about how to manage people, resources and processes to make those things work. Right? So the leadership part is that visionary, but the management part is really laying it out so that you can. And then of course we have a lot of technical, which is when now you go into the people who actually do the work. So I saw you have a lot of mechanical building engineers, custodians, custodial supervisors in the jobs that you have, even though sometimes we think is just technical skills these people need people skills run through all three, Right. You got to have that. The supervisor. I need to be able to connect with the staff to be able to help motivate them, to align them and schedule them accordingly and supports them. So you need those technical just so that people understand. Right. You need and each person who understand the system of feedback, but also understand people so that they are not giving you temperatures that don't work right. Or you need the electrical pacing to understand that technical aspects so that they don't expose the campus to a safety concern that might impact the building. So these are the three levels that I see. You know, you need a leader, a manager or person in a technical role and all those areas really support facilities. And of course, on the administrative side, then there's finance, right? I need a finance person who's able to help me understand, okay, if I'm doing X, what is the costs? What is the trade off? Right. It's not just I'm just making decisions. I need an h.r. Person who will help me with all the labor union and issues that i have to deal with. And i need somebody who understand people, right? So that i'm not always in this tension, but there is proactive, active conversation about how do we deal with labor. You know, how what do we need to do? How do we train our staff? There's a lot of technology that is coming to our field right now. You know, the average way of cleaning with MOP is not now we're using machines and some of them have EEI. So your custodian should not be their custodian 20 years ago. They need to be conscientious about all these things because it can't be a safety to them if it's, you know, not operate safely. So all these things become part of how, you know, you're looking at the skills of people that you want to bring into this profession. And you have to be intentional. You know, you can't just put people in. You have to help them cultivate those skills.

Kelly Cherwin 11:32
Thank you for that fantastic summary of all the different levels of leadership in facilities management. And I know part of your work is getting more women into the field of facilities management. They're underrepresented in leadership and in the higher Jobs article, you said that the U.S. Department of Labor describes the field as non-traditional for women, which could dissuade some women for applying. So what needs to change to fix this disparity, do you think?

Winnie Kwolfie 11:57
Well, I think names moderate places you define something as not traditional. It means you're already telling us when excluded. Right. And and I think it's a definition used for any ethnic group or any gender group that is less than 25% in that profession. Right. So that's the way the definition is coming from. And to me, I think it's also making it not have more women look at this profession. So we need to do a lot more education on that. We need to push back on that name of nontraditional. I don't know how politically we can move that, but it's been used for all the recording every year as they report. You know, nontraditional. And so a lot of women example is my but it's one that we talked about previously not seeing facilities as a viable profession. We have to push back on that because that is a label that is really hitting women, too, is that we're not designing the space for women. Right. So Kelly and Mary, when you go to the movie theaters in Andrew and Mike, you've seen the women's line, right? All the airports, right? When you get out whose line is longer. So the question becomes who is designing the space because you design space on your needs. So if we talk about if we lay out and say, let's design a space and you put me in a room to design a space and you put Mike in the room, today we will come up with different ways of designing because our design of the space is going to meet our needs, right? Things that appeals to us, things that are useful to us. So the less women we have, the more we're doing ourself a disservice because we're not designing any space for women. So it's really important to bring more women into the profession because then it balances and we need that in our campuses. We already know the statistics on most campuses show that most people identify as women, right? Whether it's in the employee side or the students. But all our designs continue to be men. So I think this is where my idea of pushing back on that nontraditional becomes even more important. And it has to be important even on the academic side. In engineering school, we still have less women getting in because maybe they are not seeing these professions that offer more opportunities to women. And so we have to open it up and then open it at a beginning of the pipe to push people through to say, yes, if you go through engineering or architecture, math or whatever, you will still have a profession called facilities that will open a whole world for you to do because you need it. You need it to help us create a space that we can all benefit voices create the spaces that are being designed for us, and then we have to adjust to it. And it's not easy for us to adjust to spaces that are designed for somebody else. So we become more like aliens in our own space when we shut them.

Kelly Cherwin 14:56
And I don't know how you feel it is. I feel like sometimes it's not intentional. You and I had a previous conversation that I believe was like on a construction work site on campus that a woman was nursing and, you know, didn't have a space. And I don't think the man that designed it was intentionally trying to do that. But he didn't probably think of designing it for how it could potentially be used.

Winnie Kwolfie 15:18
So because again, you're designing for you experience, right? So in my study, the Department of Labor reported, you know, so I use I report 2021 less than what 3% were women, you know. So again, if the industry is all men designing, that's the experience, right? So first of all, they will need a lactation room. So why would you create a space for it if that's not your experience? Right. And Carla, you're right. It doesn't come to them because I'm only designing what I need. And when you're designing like we do in most cases, we're looking at can we meet this budget? So if we can meet that budget, I'm going to go with my basic critical needs. Right? And that would then be something that I'm not using that wouldn't come to me. But if there were women in and we're designing, they're going to say, Hey, we will need X to be able to use the space. And it really also impacts your recruitment, because this case that I mentioned to you about the the construction site. So here is the case where you design for men. So this nursing mother needs to go walk down the road to her car to do that. You're losing productive time, and yet you're going to penalize this woman because they have to do something that is natural to them. Right. Something that you have to do to save the life of another human being. But nobody talked about or thought about here. And so now it becomes an inconvenience and a real harm to this individual because the space was not designed because she wasn't part of the conversation. So that's what I am intending to change. That's what I'm bringing to the forefront that we have to bring women in. So you wouldn't have to think about what somebody else would need. They will tell you what they need and then you can design for it makes it even easier and it saves you budget. You know.

Andy Hibel 17:14
Thank you for.

Mike Walker 17:15
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Andy Hibel 17:47
Kind of sticking with that theme but before we get there we want to make sure we pointed out during our chat that we're going to put a link in our notes to your fact sheet for steps to attract and retain black women in facilities management, which includes passion, curiosity, authenticity, decision making, and not least of which courage. But let's kind of stick with the theme that you kind of have here. You were talking about this is what I'm trying to do. One of the things that you are trying to do is start a woman and facilities group that you helped create. What accomplishments has the group done to date that you're proud of?

Winnie Kwolfie 18:25
Well, I'm so excited to talk about women in facilities. I mean, it really was just part of a conversation that my colleague had on a TEDx talk kind conference, and she just shared her stories about what it is for her as a woman in facilities. And every woman on that Zoom got excited and I said, Well, you know, when women are telling you what they need, you got to jump in and take it on. It was just gold. So we launched in and pulled those and said, What can we do with this? What can we do with the voice that I've been giving to us to say me to This is what happened, here's what and all that. So we took that and we created what we call women in facilities in the CCU system. First of all, we actually won a national award so that we're proud of. This is an APA award. APA is the leadership in education facilities. We got this award for innovative practice because we are very innovative and how we did it was we took the voice and we asked a question which you asked me before What would it take for you to be a good facilities leader? And we just gave them the tools for that. We brought the women together and we said, Let's talk to you about what it takes. Here is what a job will look like. Here's the skills you need. Here are the customers that you'll be dealing with. And what we did was we brought those customers. So when I was a dean, a Provost's CFO, we brought them into the conversation. So we were having conversations with people that we were serving on our campus. So they were able to tell us their perception of facilities. We were able to hear what they think of us and we were able to share what we think and have those conversations. And with that, guys, what doors opened for these women, because most of our work is very hierarchical, right? I go to my boss, to my boss, to my boss. We were taking those walls out. Now you get to understand what the provost office does, what the student affairs office does, what this office that. And so they were able to just saw a lot of them were able to get promotions because first of all, they were going, oh, it's a nontraditional job. Can I do it? Well, yeah, you can. You have all the skills you need to get it, so go for it. And a lot of them did and really got into positions and they are succeeding. We have one that even is soaring. You know, she has created her own campus women in facilities and has students and faculty like think about the work this person is doing on her campus. It's just phenomenal. Right. So just opening this up for women to see the possibilities, they took it and we're taking it to places that we were like, wow, you know, So professionally, they were growing and institutionally we were gaining because they were able to use all the other skills that they thought was needed. But now they're bringing it to the space, right? So they're giving you moral quality work, high quality work in your job. And that's to be celebrated. And most importantly, we've actually increased the number of women in our management, which to me was like, wow, you know, because when we started there were very few of us. Now when I go in the space, I'm like, Oh yeah, So I know when we're doing these, they are contributing to how we should do. I said, This is how we should design the spaces, which makes everybody feel inclusive. And that I think is just great to celebrate.

Kelly Cherwin 22:00
Definitely. I agree that there's a lot of reason to celebrate. So I know we briefly talked about pushing back on how we talk about the nontraditional term, but how can college universities highlight this profession? So it attracts a wider range of higher ed professionals, especially women?

Winnie Kwolfie 22:13
I think it's a lot of work we need to do. I think just highlighting courses that we already have, the engineering schools, the architectural schools, the planning highlighting facilities is going to be important. You know, we do have all these career services because facilities, we are always working. We never should have table, right? So I think having those partnership with the academic side to really bring people to talk about here is a profession because if you see the perception people have of facilities, it doesn't entice people to say, I want to join facilities. Right? But if you bring that leadership component, the business component, the complexity of what we do, the excitement of what we do, and the fact that we are also a movement on campus, I think it changes the conversation. But the other thing I used to say is that we do have a lot of students who come through our economy. And one thing I always tell the students is that I'm giving you a career. You're not just working here. So again, it takes time to bring that, but having those opportunities to really have students coming to the facilities department to really see what it is also opens another door for students to say, Yeah, and most of the students that have gone through that, you'd be surprised when you interview a lot of campuses, a lot of students who study, they stay there and they usually go all the way to the executive level, but there's very few of them. And so that's something that we need to do. On the professional side. I know I talk about opportunities. If I know that, you know, those professions are doing a great job also on highlighting the profession, but I think there should be more collaboration across really intentional, especially the fact that women are not. They need to showcase that and really support and promote and sponsor programs that will help bring more women into the profession because there's very few of us. And when there's very few of us, it's tough to be in that space, right? Because I'm working in a space where I'm the only woman. Right? Or very few of us, and it's really a struggle. And so if I'm not loving my job, I'll probably leave for something else because we love the company, right? So that support needs to be there. And then, of course, research in my study showed that there's very little research on facilities. You know, if you Google, you might see a lot of things, but you know, that's not what you want. You want real quality information to see what strategic views or ideas can I get from to make my campus better and inclusive. You're not going to find that because there's very little research on the profession itself, let alone research on women. So my research on women is going to be maybe one of the few that's coming up right now because there isn't research on women in facilities or very few. So those areas are important. The academic side, promoting, promoting, promoting on the, you know, business side, bringing the professions and the academic side, internships, you know, whatever we need. And also research those three likes I think will help highlight and bring more women in. And this podcast, I think is great too, because I'm hoping that as women and people listen to it, they will say, Let me check facilities out and try it and see where it takes them.

Kelly Cherwin 25:31
Well, speaking of that, like checking things out, I know you're trained as an engineer. Looking back when you were in school, did you think, hey, I want to go into facilities management leadership? Was that, you know, broadcasted or publicized? And like, how did you end up going into facilities management leadership in higher ed?

Winnie Kwolfie 25:49
I had no clue what facilities it was. I had no clue. Not at all. You know, I didn't even know when I was in facilities, whether I was in facilities, by the way. So I didn't know. I had no idea. Literally, you know, in my research, all my participants, none of them, nobody knew what facilities. Right. Even one participant who was working in facilities said, Hey, do you know what's facilities? We don't. And so how did I get in? So I took a job in higher ed in 25. And so my job was a project manager for Capital Project. And so during the handover it was a struggle. The facilities folks did not like it. They're like, this building is wrong. That it I mean, it was funny. I was like, What? What were you when they were designing it? Did you do anything about it? You know? So I was in the middle trying to figure out what went wrong. So the next job that I took was a position that was created to be like that middle man negotiating between facilities and capital. Right. And because facilities is this profession that brings everybody think about it. When you put in a room of people who have their own professional experiences, they said, does right because we all live with our own experiences. We don't cross over easily, right? Because we have to build community to understand that. And that's one of the interesting thing about facilities is that we come with so many professions into this profession that everybody has your own experience. What do you think it should be? So that was when I started getting very interested in the profession and really understanding that it really was very invisible. It was nobody knew what it was and everybody defining the way they want to. So I started working across with different entities to understand, right? So I mean, we the engineers that I remember, one that was very funny when I met with them, you know, of course I'm a woman, I'm black and I'm sitting there and the guys were all leaning back on their chair. I was like, Where the hell is this woman doing? Yeah. And it was funny because I, I wanted them to leave me. And then they went right. And my job was again, to be the strategic facilities person negotiating between the capital project that is being done and the facilities. And so nobody was giving me an eye contact and I sat there and then I passed a funny joke and I say, Well, you know, it could be like you're in a barge, blah, blah, blah, you know, and you have to deal with it. And, you know, I'm here that we can engage guys or we can support each other and make it work. And, you know, I'm trying to just get people to just lean in. And that was hard. But finally, I think my bad joke worked and they laughed and they all leaned in and then we started talking. And that's when I realized, Oh, God, you know, this is a very fascinating profession, cause when you can bring people together for and accomplish men, it was a big deal. And we did a lot of projects together where I'll come in and say, okay, we need to do a design review of this. You know, give me all your things. You think we need. I can't guarantee everything, but I can guarantee something that would work. And it was just creating this path of how can we move forward? This is not get disappointed that we're not going to get everything we wanted. And that's actually what builds my curiosity and interest in facilities and our state. Since I joined boards in the profession to learn more about the profession, I actually became a president of a regional board just to learn more about the profession. And I got very interested and done a lot of projects and programs on bringing women in, increasing diversity and making it more fun. And I think that is why I'm still excited about facilities. That is why I did a doctoral program and so did a study in facilities because it was just so interesting what it could be. And I'm all for the excitement.

Andy Hibel 29:37
Thank you, Winnie. There's a lot of places where you can practice the work that you do, but what inspires you and keeps you inspired to work in higher education? And as you look at what inspires you, offer what your hope is to get others inspired. Like you are not only to do facilities management, but also do it in higher ed.

Winnie Kwolfie 29:56
Thank you. Great question. I love education. I do like teaching. I think one thing that I love in higher ed and I would say you usually incorporate you do your research, and then the research goes testing and then boom, Right? But when you work in higher ed in areas like facilities that I do, you get to actually take whatever research you're doing and apply and ask the question where it works, you know, because higher ed is the hub of innovation and research. I know that I've enjoyed that kind of inspiration. My best times is when we see students graduate every four years in commencement and they walk in the excited and they have all these cool hats and decorated. You know, it gives you these tangibles, the tangibles to see that your work mattered, the tangible to see that every four years, every year you get to celebrate somebody who's going to change the world was going to make the world better, whose life the family and go on and on. So again, we touch our people, comes back to that. And to me, being in higher ed allows me to explore that and see that and feel that and live that every day. And that's why I mean, higher ed, I think I came into high 1825. I thought I was not going to stay. And for some reason I continue to stay and I love it because of that tangibles thing that you all work not, you know, I'm not a professor, but I see myself as somebody who is learning and teaching at the same time in that space, the business of facilities even make it even much better because I'm running this complex organization. I have been fortunate in the last three years doing my doctoral program to be a student. So even though I've graduated in school, I went back to school. But I was not just a student, I was an administrator. So I get to observe what students feel like in the space. I get to observe how my professors perform in the space and guess who is managing the space for me. That to me was such a gift because not many people have that opportunity. It's more like you looking for your customers and now you are in your customer space to really see how they use your product. And that made me even fall in love with the work that I do and inspired the work I do and even, you know, more energized to really bring people into this because what I see is that a future of education is going to be through the lens of people like me who sit in this space to see how can we change education. With all the discussion about enrollment going down and how students use this space and what we should do with our buildings and climate change and all those kind of things, when I'm going to see it in pieces, you got to see it in the moment and feel what it looks like to be able to bring that complexity to leadership and say, Hey, here's what we could do differently. Is the future of a classroom going to be like what it looks like? No, you have too many gadgets to put it in one room because you can't have that electrical node. Climate change, mental health. How do we exit buildings? How do we create community? Those are the things that inspire me. Those are the things that make me feel, I mean, the right profession. And that's what I want to do. Do more research, provide those information so that we can have a great campus that people would love and want to go to school bases. It's just another boring class, right? That's what inspires me. That is what keeps me in high education. 18 facilities.

Kelly Cherwin 33:33
One thing I must say, you are inspiring. So thank you so much for the work that you're doing and on your campus and in the field and facilities management leadership. So thank you so much for making a difference in the space. But then in higher ed as well when it's been a pleasure having you on today. We really enjoyed our conversation.

Winnie Kwolfie 33:50
Thank you. This has been fabulous. I really appreciate the time. You know, I started with stopping by area and talking to one of your representatives. And, you know, those exhibition halls are a great place for things like this to be made. And I'm so glad I was there. And I'm so glad that, you know, you all listening to my facility spiel and we're excited about it as much as I am. And thank you for this opportunity. And, you know, I'm looking forward to more conversations like this. So thank you.

Andy Hibel 34:23
Thank you so much. We and thank you for listening. And if you have questions for us or for Winnie or any thoughts about today's podcast, please email us at podcast@HigherEdJobs.com or feel free to send a direct message on X to us @higheredcareers. Thank you for listening.