Andy Hibel 0:04
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of Higher Ed Jobs.

Kelly Cherwin 0:10
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy. Today we are here with Dr. Amy Hoch, and we'll be talking about well-being on campus. Dr. Hoch is a licensed psychologist, associate director of the Wellness Center at Rowan University. Dr. Hoch received her doctorate of psychology from Pace University in New York City in 1997. Her professional interests include sexual violence, trauma, sexual health, relationships and risky behaviors, including self-injury, substance abuse, eating disorders and suicide. Her theoretical orientation includes dialectical behavior therapy and cognitive behavioral therapy. And Amy is also a recent contributor to an article on well-being efforts on campus. So thank you so much, Amy, for joining us today.

Amy Hoch 0:49
Thank you for having me.

Kelly Cherwin 0:51
So we know well-being remains a hot topic, not only hot, but obviously a very important and necessary topic to talk about on college campuses for students, staff, faculty and job seekers. So let's set the stage by defining wellness or well-being.

Amy Hoch 1:07
Yeah, well, that is a good question because I don't think there is one definition that people hold to, but there has been recently an entire association definition developed that thinks of it really as this optimal but dynamic state in which we're really wanting people to move in the direction of their highest potential. So it's both individual and interconnected. It's a process and it really has its roots in positive psychology, kind of a an area of study that looks at how people really create a life worth living.

Kelly Cherwin 1:46
So I don't want this interview to be, you know, negative by any means, But I think we should get out of the way. Like what? What are some ways that people are affected, students, staff on campus if they are not able to live their best? How We were saying like their their highest potential and they are affected by negative mental health.

Amy Hoch 2:05
Yeah, well, listen, I think I think we all are at times impacted by environmental issues, political issues. The pandemic is something we all really share as a global trauma. And even before the pandemic and I think you can look at research that's happened since and that happened before. Already before the pandemic, we were looking at this issue of well-being, moving away from wellness and this kind of Western model of looking at problems, pathologizing issues, and then creating intervention plans or solutions for the problems. Well-Being is really a way of looking at something in more holistic manner and kind of thinking about how do we optimize life. And the pandemic is a good example that everyone can maybe kind of hold to and think about their own life. You know, when we are isolated from people, when we don't have things like social connection, we're lonelier and we don't do as well. When we are physically disabled in some way, when we are injured, when we are dealing with a chronic health issue that often leads to difficulties that doesn't mean people can't still lead fulfilling lives, you know, full lives, but they may need support in kind of thinking beyond the immediate issue that might be debilitating them momentarily. We know that people who are not part of a community, who don't have a sense of belonging, who don't have something in their lives, school work that creates a sense of purpose for them, that makes life harder, and they don't do as well. And then, you know, kind of behaviorally, financially, emotionally, we know that when people struggle, you know, when they have ebbs and flows with any of those issues, we know that there might be dips in well-being. So there's lots of components to well-being. And you can have an area that has some challenge to it in a moment, but it's really learning skills and really thinking broadly, having perspective over life so that if there is one thing that creates a challenge, you still have capacities that you've built that help you weather difficult or adverse situations like the pandemic, for example.

Kelly Cherwin 4:30
Thank you for that explanation. I like how you said earlier that it's a process. It's not like we've reached. Yeah, perfect well-being. So.

Amy Hoch 4:37
Yeah, I wish I mean, I always say it's a practice not ever perfected. So that brings its own challenges because some of us really like to get it right and, you know, have a more perfectionistic style. So for those of us who might fall into that category, that can also impact wellbeing. When we come to focused on the perfect end goal and not the process.

Andy Hibel 4:59
Thank you. I think that's a it. I know we're here talking about student well-being, but I think you mentioned that we talk often about careers in academia on our podcast. I think there's so much to be said for the value of the work we do in academia. And what I would say is the little bonus you get from it about the meaning and the positive effects it has on your reflection on yourself in looking at the work you're doing, knowing it's not only important for the students you serve, but also for knowledge that is built in these institutions from the work that the faculty do, from a research perspective and the communities that colleges reside in, how important that it affects life culturally with the arts and with providing leadership and bringing amazing talent to the community. It's great. I'm speaking from my experience, from my time working, particularly at Penn State. I'm thinking about now that it just it's a wonderful feeling from a well-being perspective. Then on some of those other days when it's a little bit harder to find it that you can actually do it. So it's interesting here, talking within academia and people who work in academia about student well-being, but also kind of reflecting on our own well-being, I think it's a pretty neat place. From your perspective, do you feel folks at colleges and universities who serve students and then serve the missions of the institution can't find different places to tap into that for well-being?

Amy Hoch 6:32
Yeah, I think a school and in this case a higher education institution. It is ripe ground for really being able to optimize well-being. I think similarly, you know, or opposite to that, you can be at an institution where if you feel alone or isolated, right, it can have the opposite effect. I think that one of the things that has been made even more clear since the pandemic and that the surgeon general, David Murthy, has really taken on, I think, as as a charge to us all is this idea of workplace well-being. And if we at higher education institutions, the administration, faculty, staff are also not cultivating well-being of our own, it's likely that we won't be able to do that for our students and for our colleagues. I'm an administrator, so I'm a manager of staff. I also meet with students. Some of us have many different roles, so we have touch points, all of us with opportunities to educate people about well-being, but to actually live out our values. And when we do that, we are models for the people around us. You know, when I feel inspired and passionate about something and I am really invest it in my calling as a psychologist because that's what I am and really cultivating this idea of well-being that's going to have a ripple effect on those people around me And that means also that I have an opportunity to create policies and procedures that take into account well-being of the people that work. For me and how that then has an impact on our policies that impact students. I have an opportunity to think about diversity and inclusion in a way that helps people at the workplace, at which, you know, I oversee within the larger institution where people do feel a sense of connection and belonging. So I think we are interconnected in that way, too, right? Staff, faculty and students, we all have the ability to have this transactional relationship that can build well-being or it can, you know, have the opposite effect when we're not really thinking that way and thinking about how we influence others.

Andy Hibel 8:57
Amy, thank you so much for that thoughtful reflection. And it really is interesting how particularly when we're not able to do it under optimal situations, how what can be an absolute power can can turn into a force that's not so powerful. In regards to your experience in your program at Rowan, what are some of the wellness and well-being programs that you're most proud of and what's been successful so far on campus in this realm? And what do you think that it's been successful?

Amy Hoch 9:27
Well, I think that, you know, there was a group of people that prior to the pandemic really saw the movement towards wellbeing as a really a paradigm shift. And that thinking about it from the top down, the bottom up, really identifying influencers on campus who were going to activate other people who might be inspired by this idea of not just solving problems, but again, building capacity and looking at prevention and optimal wellbeing overall. So I think that group of people who really has activated things on campus really looked at getting key stakeholders across the university involve and seeing the benefit of wellbeing really as almost another pillar, you know, of the university. From that we have a student wellbeing committee and we have an employee wellbeing committee that really looks at both groups of people and how wellbeing can be cultivated. And then from that we developed thrive as a brand around wellbeing and have really used that to put resources towards creating its own entity outside of the wellness center, because wellness can be seen as problems, right? I go to talk to a clinician at the wellness center or counseling because I have a problem and I want to fix that. And so this idea of separating, even though it kind of falls under the same umbrella, we want to separate it and think about, all right, how do we get people really inspired around these concepts of financial, emotional, behavioral well-being, purpose, community and social connection? So thrive. We put resources towards it, so money behind it and people who are repurposed to actually oversee just that, just that entity. And from there, we started to create policies and procedures and also programs that would really shine a spotlight on this idea of thrive. So a couple of those programs include things like profits with a purpose. This is a annual walk. We do an APR that is focused on suicide prevention, and everyone from the community can get involved and walk and raise money. And that money goes back to the students at Rowan. This year we're doing something new. We had the walk just a couple of weeks ago, but we're giving out many grants to students, faculty and staff and partners who might create their own programming around wellbeing so that hopefully, again, that transaction builds the idea of wellbeing and produces other programs that will really support students. We also have a retreat in each semester called Recharge and connect with the really the primary purpose being this idea of social connection. We know that freshmen come in the early part of the time that they're there, and if they don't get connected to a group early on, they feel more isolated. They don't do as well academically and they may not actually stick, you know, and kind of stay through freshman year or beyond. And so getting them connected to a group of people where they have a sense of community is really important. So we offer this retreat at a very minimal price and we have scholarships for students. There are very dedicated group of staff that bus the students out to a forest where they do lots of activities together. They stay overnight and they learn a lot about themselves and they bond with some of these other students who they may have, you know, lifelong relationships with after. And so that idea of connection is one of the things that we really want to focus on. We also have pals. This is a peer support program that lives directly in Thrive. And so these peers are ambassadors in many ways. Other students who, you know, can talk about wellbeing with other students, get the word out about programming, and often from other students, students are more likely to take in that information. And again, that's an opportunity for connection with somebody. We also have a student mental health conference every year which highlights mental health and mental wellbeing. Students put in proposals. They speak about their own lived experiences. They speak about, you know, wellbeing or research that they're doing. And then in the very beginning of the semester we have something called Fresh Check day, which is an opportunity for students, staff, faculty, community partners to come on to campus, to share resources, you know, elevate discussion around mental health and wellbeing and hopefully set the stage for, you know, this is something that used to have a lot of stigma around it. We want students to know that, you know, we want to be talking about this. We want to be thinking about this day in and day out and help them know the resources from the beginning.

Kelly Cherwin 14:32
I am so impressed with all the programming that Rowan has. That is amazing. And I can say as a parent of a soon to be freshman starting in college in the fall, that type of support is what I hope all institutions have. Because you're right, that feeling of being included and connected is so, so important. I mean, not only for our students, but obviously as employees as well. I like the fact that you guys are both tapping into all the different entities on campus. So that's fantastic. So kind of switching gears here to talk a little bit about your your research. So part of it was you visited George Mason University and you gathered ideas for the American College Health Association's annual meeting. So what were some key takeaways or some some aha moments that you found there at that meeting?

Amy Hoch 15:15
I think we didn't know a lot about wellbeing when we first started to do some of the research. And so I think this idea of it being both individual and interconnected and how one begins to really think about changing a culture on a university I think is something that we didn't really think about and had to really consider. All right, how do we identify who stakeholders are? How do we get them inspired about this concept? You know, George Mason and HHC, the American College Health Association. You know, one, the ACA really looks at things from more of research perspective. They do a lot of surveying. They get information out to colleges and universities. And so the information they started to share, I think, were things that helped us kind of think about, okay, we can't just think about well-being as a program. You know, we really have to think about this as something that we are going to build long term, which meant that our expectations around getting it up and running were, I think, you know, held to a more reasonable expectation. I think that this interface of diversity and inclusion and well-being is something that was already kind of a piece of what George Mason and OSHA talked about. But I think even after the pandemic, that became much clearer because we began to see that inequities that were present around health care, in particular, you know, if people aren't able to access good health care or mental health, if they are feeling that they don't belong because they are marginalized, because their identity isn't affirmed, that has a significant impact on well-being. So we can't see the two things as separate. I would say that's one of the most important things I think that we realized, and in all honesty, if we don't have people who are representative of our students and have a variety of lived experience at the table thinking about well-being, we would lose that very idea. It's kind of like what we're learning about. I, you know, if the people who are creating the algorithms aren't actually diverse enough, you're not going to get the output that you want. And so I think it's true for this, too. If we don't have faculty, staff, students and then people of all backgrounds really talking about, all right, what is wellbeing to you? What does that mean and who else do we need here that is in here talking about that? We are not going to come up with a paradigm that meets the needs of everyone. So I think that was probably the most important takeaway the ACA has. Research from that point has really shown that and has shown that actually in one of the surveys that they do with college students, you know, describe a nation and asking about discrimination experiences, For example, when we're not asking about those of students, we lose a very significant risk factor when we're looking at mental health and well-being. So oftentimes we think about behaviors like suicide or self-injury or substance use as important risk factors. They are. But for our students who are marginalized, discrimination has as much, if not more, power to, you know, have an impact. And if we're not even asking students about those experience, we are in some ways invalidating their identity, their sense of belonging. And so really being able to take that holistic view and see DIY as wholly interconnected with well-being.

Andy Hibel 19:02
Thank you so much. I think the value of RTI and the pervasiveness that it can make a difference within an institution. It's yet another good example of how it really knows no bounds and why universities are committed to it for the right reasons. It's interesting, so much that happens on campus is based off of the academic year, but students and their well-being therefore disperse come this time of year and then come back to campus come fall. And New Jersey has a unique summer program that allows university students to access therapy no matter where they may be over the summer. How has that program been integrated into the university?

Amy Hoch 19:44
Governor Murphy and the Higher Education Office really put financial backing behind this idea of well-being and mental health, because we know that adolescents and young adults were impacted the most since the pandemic, although we saw trends in that area prior to the pandemic. And so what Governor Murphy did was put $10 million in the kind of first backing of this tell a therapy option for students. So they contracted with a company called You Will. That is a tell therapy platform specifically focused on college students. And they've been in this business prior to this contract. But what it has allowed all higher education institutions across the state of New Jersey to do is to offer this to students. And what that allows is students can match with a therapist 24 seven. They can access this platform through their own email. They don't have to come in to a wellness center or counseling to access that. It can be done over video chat, email. So for students who might have more challenge, talking to someone, even looking at someone in the eye and doing it that way, there's other opportunities for them to access support. And this is then available in all 50 states. So as you mentioned, when you know one barrier to treatment sometimes is that when students go home and they're out of state, they go back to a state where I can't meet with them across state lines because of some of the policies around licensure. So with you will, they can continue to access treatment. So they may have you will throughout the academic year. They can use it at any time or if there has to be a kind of an end in treatment over a summer or even when they go abroad to study, they can still access you will services anywhere. And that's a really nice opportunity for students if they don't want to walk into a place, show their face. If again, there's some stigma still attached to that, they don't have to do that. They can just access it on their own. What's also really nice is that so that program was initially financially supported through March of 2024. We got word in January that that program was going to be extended to March of 2025. We just got word yesterday that that program is extended through 2026. So students can benefit from that and so can we actually as mental health clinicians, you know, the other side of well-being, as we said, is that, you know, those of us who've been doing mental health and college counseling centers, you know, the demand for services has outweighed the resources that we often have. Rowan has financially supported wellness and mental health resources in a very strong way. But not every institution in New Jersey has that luxury or has had that ability. And so what it helps us do is clinicians is not just have to put out fires with crises that are, you know, we're having to handle for students or having to potentially limit access to sessions. This way we can offer a lot more programming and we can do a lot more for students who might want to have in-person sessions with us and allow students who want to access services via tell a therapy using you. Well.

Kelly Cherwin 23:23
That's fantastic. What a wonderful opportunity that that students can can have access to that. And Andy said earlier, I wanted to piggyback on what he's saying about how institutions are doing it for the right reasons. I just wanted to say I can see how authentic Rowan is in the mission behind all of this. And it's it's fantastic. Kind of switching over to looking at leaders, we said something earlier like, you know, if you have to take care of yourself before you can help your staff or your students, so kind of put your mask on first type approach. But how can University College leaders check in with their staff and faculty and students ensure they have that support that they need?

Amy Hoch 24:00
Well, I think that that directive needs to come from the president of the university h.r. Within the university and then the deans and chair people of different departments. And so one of the things that we want to do in the wellness center, but also in thrive is to be really helping communicate that message to those individuals so that they can start to communicate that message down to those leaders who are then actually going to do check ins right with their staff or when they have a first class with their students, they're going to introduce themselves and they're going to talk about the well-being resources on campus. They're going to put those on their syllabi, they're going to put those on any website that might be attached to their department or their college. They're going to offer students extra credit options to go to a program on campus that has to do with well-being. They're going to talk to students about other resources on campus that support their tutoring student success, social justice, you know, all those things that might help them get connected in ways beyond academics. So one that means training the staff and faculty around what is offered and what we are doing at Rowan. But right at any institution that would apply to, I think when it comes to managers or leaders, you know, one of the ways that I do that is that we have annual evaluations that we do with staff. And so in my annual evaluation every year I talk about and rate people on their own ability to take care of themselves, on their own well-being, efforts towards themselves. I think that's as much of a job responsibility as anything else, because I believe that if you are doing better, then you're going to do better for your students. So I think building an end to things like evaluations, feedback sessions that we want to be having with students, faculty or staff, I try to you know, we have monthly staff meetings that are really about this issue. You know, how is everybody doing? Where might we be losing ground in terms of not being connected or not trusting each other or, you know, having feelings of overwhelm? It's us in a staff meeting prioritizing. How is everybody doing in terms of burnout? What can we do to support you? You know, all of those things I believe, should take some priority so that staff feel heard and seen so that you can know what places are challenges and places that you need to kind of really work on and develop. I also, in my evaluation, talk to people about social justice. So wellbeing and mental health are social justice issues. And so how are you as a staff person in our organization attending to social justice issues? How are you learning for yourself? What trainings are you doing that might elevate your own understanding of yourself and the people around you? And how are you putting that into practice so that we as a wellness center or we as an institution are doing better? How does that interface with our Strategic action plan, with DCI or with the mission for for the wellness center? So I think we have to find ways to tie it to policies, procedures, evaluations, and then build in checking points right throughout the year, whether that's in retreats with staff, whether that's in feedback sessions, so that we are putting those ideas into actual practices and actions.

Kelly Cherwin 27:55
I love all those efforts, and I think the biggest takeaway I hear is the idea that you guys are are talking about it. You're having the conversation, you're not letting people struggle in silence. And it's okay to take care of yourself. And it's an important and it's necessary. So thank you for that.

Andy Hibel 28:12
What's your advice to higher ed institutions and leadership that want to make wellbeing and wellness a priority on campus?

Amy Hoch 28:20
I think it is to finance it, to model it, to think about if you are a leader, then this is something that you have to be prioritizing. We just know too much about how trauma impacts productivity and absenteeism and mental health issues. And so if we have that knowledge, then I think we have to be charged with addressing it somehow. I think it's, you know, thinking about your hiring procedures, thinking about and asking questions of those we hire around how they are taking care of themselves. How might you respond to requests from the institution to go beyond your capacity? You know, how will you work to change some of those policies that really might be built into an institution that are hard to change? And I think that having dedicated people, if you're really going to elevate wellbeing, it's having dedicated people who are assigned to be working on this issue that is the sole issue that they're working on, but holding that everybody at the university or a workplace has responsibility for wellbeing. It can't just be the wellness center, it can't just be, you know, thrive. We have to instill in people that this is something we all can model and can have a huge influence on our students lives and on our own. If we just take a little bit of time, even just to check in with somebody about that.

Kelly Cherwin 30:02
And I just have a follow up question regarding the funding. I know you mentioned, you know, the funding and having it finance and I know you mentioned in the article that I referenced that you received a grant from the Institute for Meaningful Living. Is that a grant that other institutions can apply for? And do you have ideas of other sources where funding could be a part of the equation for institutions? Sure.

Amy Hoch 30:24
I think certainly, depending on whether you're a private or a public institution, it could mean that the administration budgets right and repurposes money for wellbeing itself. It could also mean, as you mentioned, right grants. Actually, that grant came also from the state of New Jersey because of money left over from pandemic funds, they decided to give every university some pool of money that each university had to say what they were going to use it for with the broadest goal being that we wanted to impact student mental health and wellbeing. SAMHSA is another government institution that is dedicated to substance abuse and mental health. They often give out grants to higher education institutions or to other institutions around programming for issues like suicide or wellbeing. The Jed Foundation is another organization that does a lot for college campuses, and they often have grant money available or training opportunities, you know, options for institutions to use some of the programming that they've already created to train their own institutions. And then sometimes if you have a foundation at your institution whose really sole purpose is to look at facilitating, you know, donors, looking for people, alumni who might, you know, have money that they'd like to give back. We have worked with our foundation to get word out about some of the programming that we're doing because we know that there are donors out there who might just have a personal connection to an issue. We just recently got a request about, you know, what do we do around addiction? Because someone had that interest in wanting to give money back. So I would say, go to your foundation, let them know what you're doing, what programs you're offering, because that has the ability to perhaps spark the interest of, you know, some person out there who wants to help in some way.

Kelly Cherwin 32:29
Thank you. Those are wonderful resources.

Andy Hibel 32:31
Thank you, Amy, so much. We really enjoyed having you on the podcast today.

Amy Hoch 32:35
Thank you. I appreciate you elevating Well-Being. It's such an important topic. So thank you again for your time.

Andy Hibel 32:42
And if you have questions for Amy or any thoughts about this podcast, please feel free to email us at podcast at higher ed Jobs dot com or send us a direct message on Twitter at higher ed careers. Thank you for listening and we'll talk to you real soon.