Andy Hibel 0:03
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly Cherwin 0:09
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of Editorial strategy. Today we have Justin Zackal, who is a communication professional who has contributed to HigherEdJobs since 2011 with articles about career development and the job search. He's worked at five institutions during his career in higher education, helping faculty, staff and administrators share their story. Justin currently works in communications and public affairs at Slippery Rock University, and we are so excited to have him on our podcast today. Thanks, Justin, for joining us.

Justin Zackal 0:36
Oh, thank you. It's great to be back.

Kelly Cherwin 0:38
So we're going to talk about a recent article that you wrote for us regarding rugged flexibility. So in your article, you said things are going to change in your career or at your institution. Some changes you will hate. Developing a comfortable relationship to change through a ruggedly flexible response is a far better approach than simply reacting emotionally. So, Justin just kind of set the stage for this conversation here. Can you kind of talk about what are some changes in higher ed and how we can address rugged flexibility or I guess, backing up what is rugged flexibility?

Justin Zackal 1:07
Well, I'll talk about I'm fascinated with change. Despite working in higher education, where we seem to be averse to change, I'm a communicator, so I think change makes for good stories. And I also appreciate growth. And you can't have growth without change. In higher education, we've had so many changes in recent years and it's just very important for higher education professionals to recalibrate their relationship to change. And that's where a term rugged flexibility is, a term that I heard from author Brad Stolberg in his book Master of Change. He coined this term, and rugged flexibility simply means it's a mind frame that marries the qualities of resiliency and stability, but also the ability to adapt to altered circumstances and conditions and not just withstand change, but to thrive in the midst of it. And there's no question in higher education, we've had a lot of change. And there's more me more changes to come. I mean, there's gradual change. There's, you know, student facing. Workers have to deal with students who are arriving on campus, underprepared for college. They have more anxiety than ever. And these are all downstream effects from the pandemic. There's sudden change. You have new managers coming in wanting to shake things up and make sweeping changes. There's a lot of turnover at the president's level. The terms of presidents now are now shorter than ever. They're only six years, and that affects a lot of change at institutions. But I'd say the biggest change is how higher education responds to the market. That's the job market. You know, for workers, there's a lot of turnover. I know that. COOPER H.R. released a survey recently that said volunteer turnover rate for higher education staff is at its highest point since they began measuring it. And it's also change with the competition for students. There's the approaching enrollment cliff. So after 2025, the traditional college going population is expected to shrink by about 15 percentage points. So there's there's change that's happened. There's change that's come. And it's just very important for higher education professionals to be flexible and to thrive in the midst of change.

Andy Hibel 3:20
I think that's a really, really great summary and I'm really glad you brought up basically the end of 2000 recession era and the decrease in the birthrate. I mean, when you start talking about the fact that you can't change, I always kind of come back to that one. There's fewer kids in that era that are going to be able to go to college. So if you're coinciding a strategic goal of growing your enrollment by 25% and you're going against the headwind of doing that, it's kind of like trying to say you're trying to drive through a snowstorm and make good time, you're just not going to be able to do it. You need to understand that these are the circumstances. I think you did provide a great definition of rugged flexibility. But can you maybe provide what a good example of rugged flexibility might be as it's actually in action and applied?

Justin Zackal 4:14
Well, if you look at the change continuum, so there's there's two extremes. So when you experience change, this is, you know, good or bad. But for the sake of this conversation, we'll talk about a change that's that presents a challenge for you. One extreme is you resist the change. You go to h.r. You go to your manager, you complain about it, you experience this discomfort or whatever what have you or you decide like, you know, I've had enough of this. I'm going to go and I'm going to apply for a different job. You go to HigherEdJobs and you applied to 75 open positions. I believe we call that rage applying. So that's one end of the continuum. And then the other one is, you know, this passive resignation where you simply accept the terms and you just try to deal with it and survive. Rugged, flexible. It is in the middle of that continuum. It's identifying the challenges and trying to, you know, leverage something to your advantage. And just that whole term rugged flexibility. I mean, it's kind of a riff on the rugged individualism, which is like, you know, the American ideal of, you know, self-determination and controlling your own destiny. But as higher education professionals, you know, we're not entrepreneurs or solo practitioners. We need others and we need social infrastructure, and we are affected by the changes around us. But yeah, that's that's why I mean, whenever you find yourself in the midst of of change and how to apply rugged flexibility.

Andy Hibel 5:43
I love that you brought rugged individualism into it. I think if I was to differentiate between the two, when you look at rugged flexibility, actually you do have control of that. That is something that you can not control the circumstances that happen to you. That's the acknowledgment of the rugged flexibility. But you can control how you view those circumstances. And if you look through a number of different theologies, that's definitely something that's out there that people have looked at for generations and generations. One of the things that struck me in the article and anybody who knows me mildly well knows I'm a huge fan of Bruce Springsteen's.

Mike Walker 4:23
Really?

Andy Hibel 6:23
Yeah, believe it or not, and this is one of my favorite articles ever, because I believe it is the first article ever on HigherEdJobs. And there's thousands and thousands of them there has ever made a Bruce Springsteen reference. So I'm delighted that I have I have the ability to ask the Question podcast. So in the article you there's a reference made to to Bruce, and it's about tragic optimism. And let's talk about that. Bruce Springsteen once told The Atlantic that the heart of wisdom is to, quote, accept the world on its terms without giving up the belief that you can change the world, unquote. How does this relate to tragic optimism and how do you apply tragic optimism in our lives?

Justin Zackal 7:11
Okay. First, I got.

Andy Hibel 7:12
To hold on one sec. Just one other thing that I'd like to add if possible. Could you use lyrics and titles of songs from Bruce Springsteen's catalog to answer this question?

Justin Zackal 7:23
I can not do that. I know. Like, if. If I could. If you're experiencing some change in New Jersey and you needed to get the heck out of New Jersey, maybe I could do that. But I have to run. But no, but I just want to also say that it it took a lot of restraint for me not to write a career advice article and mentioned Bruce Springsteen without saying, don't listen to your boss, but listen to the boss. So I just wanted to put that out there.

Mike Walker 7:50
Calling all higher ed professionals. If you like what you're hearing on the HigherEdJobs podcast, subscribe to HigherEdJobs Insider update. Your weekly ticket to the latest opportunities, trends and insider tips in the world of higher education, delivered directly to your inbox. Don't miss out on feature job postings, career advice, job search tips and more. Subscribe now and stay one step ahead in the ever evolving landscape of academia. Head to higheredjobs.com/insider to sign up your future self will thank you once again that's higheredjobs.com/insider.

Kelly Cherwin 8:27
Well I must say Andy I think it's funny how you I know you love Bruce Springsteen too much and you referenced him as Bruce like you like you know him like a personal friend. So you talked about Bruce.

Andy Hibel 8:37
So it is I mean, maybe Bruce Wayne in my life has had a similar impact. But now I know Bruce's Bruce in my life.

Kelly Cherwin 8:47
Can I can I put you on the spot and can you tell people how many times you've seen Bruce, your friend Bruce, play?

Andy Hibel 8:54
At least 20. I've lost count, though.

Mike Walker 8:58
At least I'm sure it's multiplied by now.

Andy Hibel 9:02
No, no, I think that's a fairly accurate count.

Kelly Cherwin 9:05
Okay. Let's not argue about that. Well, well, we'll throw that back to you. Justin, I know.

Andy Hibel 9:12
Sorry Justin for the diversion . If you're looking to have Springsteen Conversations with Me podcast that higheredjobs. com or send me a message on X @higheredcareers, I will gladly respond to any thoughts you may have about Bruce Springsteen.

Mike Walker 9:26
But don't ask about Journey.

Andy Hibel 9:28
Do not ask about Journey.

Kelly Cherwin 9:30
Okay, so back to tragic optimism, Justin.

Justin Zackal 9:34
So tragic optimism. It's you know, it's a related term to rugged, rugged, rugged flexibility, tragic optimism. And Stolberg, the author of Master of Change, defines it as the ability to maintain hope and find meaning in life despite its in inescapable pain, loss and suffering. I think of that like that's part of the human condition, not just, you know, a work experience. You know, we gain we gain meaning of life through our response to unavoidable suffering. I mean, this goes back to Viktor Frankl, a famous psychologist in his book Man's Search for Meaning that, you know, that we we get meaning in life by creating the work that we do or doing a deed by experiencing something or encountering someone like beauty or relating to other people. But the third one is by the attitude that we take toward unavoidable suffering. And that's an that's tragic optimism there. Like you're going to experience trauma, pain, emotional strife in your life, in your work experience, and how you'll be defined by it is how you respond to that. What actions do you take? And that's that's why it's important to mention tragic optimism in an article about this concept of rugged flexibility, because growth comes from change, you know, But Stolberg mentioned in his book that, like, you know, there are can be changes that you have that are just they are circumstances you have you might not get growth from it. You might not have meaning in all bad circumstances you have, but you can't have growth without some change. And that's why this this concept of tragic optimism, it coincides with rugged flexibility so much.

Andy Hibel 11:09
And I feel like for folks who may not be familiar when you're talking about Viktor Frankl, the circumstances of that book was based on his experiences of being a survivor of a concentration camp during the Holocaust and the the theory that he came up with with logo therapy. If you haven't read the book and you're looking for inspiration to be able to look at tragic optimism and develop rugged flexibility, I couldn't suggest that book more as a great example to our listeners that that that's a wonderful way to to better understand this concept.

Justin Zackal 11:45
Yeah. And it gets into control. You know, you can control your response to something that's between a stimulus and a response. You have that ability to control. You know, you may feel like you've lost control if changes occur to you in the workplace, but you can change your emotional response and some of the actions that you take in the face of change.

Kelly Cherwin 12:03
Well, Justin, you know that you are one of our favorite writers for higher ed jobs. And I think one of the reasons why people connect so well with your articles because you have great practical advice. So we keep referencing your rugged flexibility article, but in the article you discuss the four P's. So for those people who I hope everyone can, can take time to read the full article, but if you're listening in the car or on a walk or whatever, when you're listening to podcasts and don't have time to read an article right now. Could you kind of summarize what these four P's are and how it affects our career?

Justin Zackal 12:35
Yeah, This is also taken from Brad Steinberg's book, The Master of Change. He developed a heuristic that it's proven to work in psychotherapy, but it's it's the four P's of pause, process, plan, and proceed. Okay. So let's give example of rugged flexibility in action here. Let's just say that you're working at an institution and your coworker leaves and your school decides not to backfill that position, leaving more work for you. That's a change. How do you apply this? Okay, you have to first pause. Allow yourself to feel whatever emotions you have from this, from the circumstances could be anger. You can't believe that you're not going to fill this position. You know, what have you allow that emotion to? To consume and feel that. But then you have to move on to process. You have to consider the facts. Why did they decide not to backfill the position? You know, maybe they're feeling some economic pressures there. What's the reasoning behind this? So think of it more less emotionally or more logically. And then the third P is plan. You know, you have to develop a way further this which gets into action. You know, you might have to take on A, B and C task. You'll make a plan to do those tasks very well, measure them with key performance indicators. And because you're doing more work, you might have to let a few balls drop you know, whether it's from X, Y, and Z tasks. And you know, you have to communicate that to your employer. And then in doing that plan, you move on to proceed, and that's when you execute the plan. You actually do the work, and then you show your employer the value that you bring to the institution by doing A, B, and C, and then you ask for a raise or a promotion by demonstrating that, or you might show the consequences of not doing X, Y, and Z tasks to validate the reason that they need to reconsider their decision not to backfill and rehire for that position. So that's just a great example of how you can apply rugged flexibility to the workplace using the four P's.

Kelly Cherwin 14:42
That's great. I'm so glad that you brought those four P's up and explained it because it sounds like if someone gets stuck in that the state of being so emotional and hanging on to that, that hurt or that anger, they just can't move forward. And I think we all can acknowledge change is hard. One of my favorite quotes in your article is When we make changes that we prefer, we are in control. But when unwanted changes occur at work, we might struggle to respond. We strive to restore order. So I think it's just good to acknowledge that yes, change is difficult, but don't get stuck there. Move on. And like you referenced, use those four P's. So thank you so much for talking about those. So actually, if you don't mind, I'm going to kind of piggyback on this advice and switch over to another reference you made in the article about using routines and rituals, because that can help us process these changes. So do you want to discuss some of those tactics, of routines and rituals?

Justin Zackal 15:37
Yeah. So if you're someone who finds comfort in things not changing, you can use routines and rituals in your daily life. I mean, can go beyond that. And these are things that that you do and it's not subject to change the changes around you. These are like, good morning routine. You might go for a walk on your lunch break, you might sit down and write for a half hour. It's like building these into your your day, your week, your semester. Those are important. And then you a lot of people think that rituals and routines, these things might stifle creativity or take away from any spontaneity, and they may make life dull or monotonous. But I argue that they give you the slack to better handle the chaos and to generate insights and creative thinking and embrace the other nuances in your life. You know, I stop what I'm doing every day around lunchtime and I go for a walk around the quad to my campus, helps you reset the day. And that's something I do every day. But another routine or ritual might be having lunch with a colleague at the end of the semester, knowing that you go through changes in your career, but you still have those things that you can rely on and seek comfort in and in traditions and routines and rituals and things like that.

Kelly Cherwin 16:53
And can I venture and take a guess that part of your ritual is hopefully to listen to the HigherEdJobs podcast on a weekly basis. Is that part of your routine?

Justin Zackal 17:02
Absolutely. I mean, I listen, I listen to you guys on my way to work sometimes, so I got I got my kid in the back seat. Sometimes I react to your voice.

Andy Hibel 17:14
So, Justin, we we really appreciate where you've taken us and taken our listeners to as far as rugged flexibility and I kind of feel like we have a little bit of an opportunity here to close out. As you're familiar with you. You added the last time you're on the podcast, "You can't always get what you want", to our playlist as far as job search goes, job search and career topics, a Spotify playlist that we have. And I was wondering based on the podcast today, are there any additions to our Spotify playlist that you'd like to add? And once again, all we ask is choose a song. Kind of tell us why you think it'd be good to add to the playlist.

Justin Zackal 17:52
Well, given the theme of this podcast, I Got to Go Changes by David Bowie host.

Kelly Cherwin 17:57
So on, I thought, And he's going to say, Are there any songs? Only rule is a has to be a Bruce Springsteen song.

Andy Hibel 18:03
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, Born to Run really isn't good reaction to change.

Mike Walker 18:10
So sometimes it is.

Kelly Cherwin 18:13
Some although yeah like yeah Justin said that's that's a that's an option to vary and sometimes you.

Justin Zackal 18:18
You've got to turn and turn and face the change you know and there's there's going to have to be a different man and time may change me but I came to trace time I like it.

Andy Hibel 18:27
There we go. Thank you, Justin, for joining us today.

Kelly Cherwin 18:30
Thanks, Justin.

Justin Zackal 18:31
I appreciate you having me on again. Thanks. Take care.

Kelly Cherwin 18:33
Okay, Bye.

Andy Hibel 18:34
Thank you for listening. We'll talk to you soon.