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[00:00:00] Andrew Hibel: Welcome to the HigherEdJobs Podcast. I'm Andy Hibel the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

[00:00:13] Kelly Cherwin: I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy here at HigherEdJobs. Today, we're lucky to have Dr. James Martin, a senior consultant at the registry and also a senior contributor to HigherEdJobs. Thanks Jim, for joining us.

[00:00:27] Dr. James Martin: It's a pleasure. Thanks. Ready to go. Let's talk.

[00:00:34] Andrew Hibel: It’s nice to see you today, Jim, and get some time together.

[00:00:35] Kelly Cherwin: Before we dive into our questions. Jim, can you give us a brief background on what The Registry is and then explain why interims are more important now than ever.

[00:00:45] Dr. James Martin: Yeah, that's a big question. Glad to, and at the same time, I'll try to come to the point.

The Registry is 29 years old. And as far as we are aware it's the only firm in the country that only provides it, or a [00:01:00] number of other qualified and well known firms provide interim leadership. But we're the only one that does it exclusively. And so that's the business we're in. And I am a consultant there, which means in essence, I'm one of six individuals that places people in interim jobs for usually either a semester or an academic year, sometimes more, rarely less than that. And it's easy to say that the business is very, very busy now for a number of reasons that I can try to explain. A lot of people are interested in being interims and maybe in some ways more importantly for HigherEdJobs, a lot of colleges and universities are becoming interested in retaining an interim leader

[00:01:47] Andrew Hibel: From the institutional perspective, what's the benefits of interim roles for a college or university?

[00:01:53] Dr. James Martin: Well, As I've looked at You know, for five to six years or so. I've seen some [00:02:00] changes within that is COVID. So I'm not going to lean too heavily on COVID although it's a factor, no question. But what we're seeing is that institutions are hesitant to start what will be a multi month and multi hundred thousand dollars search. To find what they will eventually need, which is another permanent leader because the institution and now let's fill in the blanks. The institution may have had someone in a high level provost, the president resigned, get another position, sometimes a senior leader of VP for enrollment or an HR director, or will it become ill or either that person or that person's significant other will have found a job in Tacoma, Washington, let's say. So institutions often are taken off guard by the departure of a valued leader.

Sometimes it's also fair to add institutions have intentionally [00:03:00] separated themselves from a former senior executive. Those institutions, when I put together all the placements I've done in the last several years have been candid with themselves and saying we're not ready to find a new president or provost or dean of nursing or business dean.

We're just not ready to do it. And so we need help. And in the business that I do we are able to provide an experienced interim who 100% of the time has held a job before. So there isn't a rehearsal. There is a try out. We are able to provide people who have readily been there and done that as they say, and can come in and either, sometimes smooth the waters calm what's going on and allow the institution to recalibrate and reset and over the course of a semester or a year set the table for the search that they've been planning to do, [00:04:00] or increasingly the interim comes in as a change agent. That's what we're seeing that more than half the time. And that person comes in to clear the decks because the interim isn't there, shall we say to make friends, although the best interims are aware of that and work to do that. But they're there to make change. And so they're there because an accreditation report has been blunt about an institution. Because donors have said we need an online program.

And there is maybe faculty and or administrative resistance or a hundred reasons. So the interim is increasingly called in to be a change agent. The tradition of calming the waters is still there. But it's in the minority of cases. So back to your original question. Institution saying, Hey, we could really hire someone who's had the job before who’s only going to come for a time, but can help us recalibrate.

[00:04:57] Andrew Hibel: Thanks, Jim. That's a very thorough answer. And I think it actually touches [00:05:00] on a few follow-up questions for me. While we don't want to specifically address COVID obviously the quote unquote great resignation that we're seeing in higher ed as well as many other industries, obviously has folks thinking differently. But also probably has institutions thinking differently one of the things that just to clarify are most of the positions when they're looking for an interim one that might be open to hybrid or virtual work, or almost all of these positions physically based nowadays, still even with the great resignation.

[00:05:33] Dr. James Martin: Um, I'm thinking because there's, again, that's a fruitful question with a number of different answers. Um, During COVID, which isn't what this question and answer are really technically about. But nevertheless, during the institutions would only Zoom interview. I didn't have a single institution that wanted the person to come to campus. In the [00:06:00] majority now that's a year ago or two years ago, the majority of places were hiring someone not even in a hybrid, Andy, but in a fully virtual or fully remote position. I was able to place at their request, three chief student affairs officers who worked fully remote and two of those three never went to the campus, never. And it worked fine. I haven't, as I may have mentioned, I don't typically work on presidential placements. Others do that. I don't think that's going to work for a, for a president, but for all other positions and I mean, all other positions.

Back to the issue of the hybrid because some institutions really absolutely, need a presence on campus, but because they don't need, they found somewhat accelerated by COVID, because they don't need someone on campus all the the person is a dean or a [00:07:00] VPA or SSL. They're going to log on every day and talk to their staff. But in general, they don't need to be there. A hybrid position might be the person comes for two weeks, sometimes a week, but usually not more than two weeks and then returns home.

And then would come back and then there's a variety of things. In some cases, they would come back for the board meetings, which are every, say six weeks, not every three months, but every six weeks at some institutions. And they would be present for board meetings, some cases they come back one month, two months, three months later and usually they wouldn't stay two weeks. They stayed two or three days. So a hybrid model, which sounds jarring to some institutions that have been for many, many decades focused on the quadrangle and campus life and understandable. It's happening more and more and more the hybrid. The fully remote position, I'm still placing people fully remote, but that somewhat fading away. By the way back to the great [00:08:00] resignation it's fading away and people want people on campus. But my impression is it's never going to be the same. And that while there are some institutions that are actually, we might say knee jerking with no, no, for us the main of COVID over whether that's true or not, we want our dean of business on campus full time.

My point is I think in another year or two or three. A number of institutions growing up are going to start to place people in hybrid positions in their permanent position. Not related to interim work, but in their permanent position, I think more and more people in higher ed are going to want to work at the very least to the hybrid position.

I see that all the time. I do not an unbridled returned to the way things were five or 10 years ago. No campus that I work with is of that mind that we're going to go back to the way things were. People have changed.

[00:08:56] Kelly Cherwin: We talked a bit about the benefits of the institution [00:09:00] and why, and when I should say an institution might want to hire an interim. So I want to flip over to the candidate side and I know you said a lot of your placements have been there done that, but what if a candidate is new to this and is considering this for the first time? So I have a little bit of a, I guess a two-part question. What should they consider if they are doing this for the first time? And what are the benefits that candidates do receive as being interim? Because I'm assuming it's not for everyone.

[00:09:28] Dr. James Martin: Well, no, I think specifically, I don't work with people that is young professionals in their twenties or thirties. Fairly said they have careers to build, uh, and really should. And they must take their chances in large permanent searches. Uh, I worked with some people in their forties, but generally I'm working in a cohort that is in their fifties and sixties and certainly in their seventies. Which is a re-invigoration for some people who didn't think they'd have that, but it's a complicated answer, Kelly, because there [00:10:00] are people whose lives have changed apart from their job in higher ed. They very much want to remain as part of a higher ed leadership team, but maybe they live now in a different part of the country because of a significant other. Or in some cases very much true with the aging of our population, they returned home to take care of parent. The people want to work, but they know, again, candidly, they can't enter a major search with HEB or Witt Kiefer. They couldn't give the time to it. So an interim position, again, for us, it's predicated on you've already had the job we would be reluctant to take as an interim member that placed that person, someone who has been, let's say an assistant dean of business or uh, professor of chemistry or an associate dean of liberal arts. We wouldn't really work with an [00:11:00] associate provost or an assistant dean because we want to be able to provide to the institution, someone who's done the job. So people's lives have changed, I see, for hundreds of reasons.

They are not of a mind to enter a permanent search. Maybe they don't feel they can enter a permanent search. They need a more mobile lifestyle. And so they want to become interims. They want the, I mean, I certainly could add the simplistic answer that the adventure for some people it's easy for me to say. They love the great puzzle that occurs on every campus. They love putting the pieces together and do that. And just because they may be, let's say 59 years old, and let's also be The person who's 62 years old could prevail in a permanent search with a big five or big 10 search for, but they're not going to be in the front of the leadership selection I would say.

Because that's the way [00:12:00] life is in our country. And so here, interims, they are a sweet spot if you've been there and you're 55 or 65. Well, as I said, you're not going to find those people in the main populating, permanent search pools with large firms. It's unfair in some ways I see the other side of it because I see the vitality of these individuals in the experience of how much they want to work.

So there's a lot to be said, but it does take a certain person. And as I said, in general, I'm not working with people in their twenties, thirties, and forties. They're people who have had the experience and want to keep working. And also, maybe one last point back to the point of significant others and family issues.

They want a position that'll last for four or five, six months, and they know there'll be a returning home again. Rather than a position that is in say Tucson or in uh, Duluth, permanent in which they have to leave family members, which simply said we'll work because of family issues.

[00:12:59] Andrew Hibel: [00:13:00] Thanks for that Jim I think it's, it's a candid observation about some of the challenges as people age within the system and definitely I think as a community, we, we really need to be thoughtful from a more of a global equity position, of how we want to approach that, is that a bias that we have as community? And if so, how do, how do we want to handle that bias? Because I do think a lot of people would share that observation that you shared.

And for most people, it's not one that sits well with folks of any age. I think what's interesting as you look at the millennial generation and gen Z. Kind of the gig based economy and gig-based work, uh, in some professions, like it have become extremely popular. I'm going to ask you to kind of extrapolate kind of understanding where your world is and where the sweet spot is now. But let's look into the, uh, the Jim Martin crystal ball of 2035. [00:14:00]

Are there benefits as you look down the organizational chart that maybe more interim positions and maybe not just for six months, but a year to two year of a placement in positions growing because it fits the institution and it fits the candidates needs at that stage of the career. Maybe that becomes more of a, a transparent relationship as people build careers, they may do so in two to three year chunks. Why don't we just be honest with one another, that that's, that's what we need. That's what we're looking for. And if there's a, another gig that lines up nicely after that gig, maybe I'll stick around, but I'm not looking for something permanent. And maybe as institutions and 2035, that might be something we consider. What is the Jim Martin crystal ball say on that?

[00:14:49] Dr. James Martin: Big question. So several thoughts related to that, for example, you've said the magic word benefits.

One of the things we haven't mentioned is that as an interim you are [00:15:00] not necessarily going to get benefits at the institution. They want to maybe want to save that money. And so one of the things that an interim needs to be aware of is do you have health benefits back to that very point, the aging of our population.

Do you have health benefits? So I find that a somewhat important and sometimes complex question, you need to have benefits. And so back to the 20, 30 and 40 year old people. We have not typically worked with those people because they're building a career. Now, crystal ball. I think that by 2035. We will see easily see individuals wanting to work in higher ed on shorter timeframes. I think that is on a straight path forward.

In which people are going to want that. I also think that it is going to be for higher ed, if not a shock, it's going to be an awakening because those people wanting to work in high red, a lot of the gig economy are going [00:16:00] to treat higher ed like any other position in that regard, it's not going to be as august.

It is not going to be at the Ivy tower that we hear. Although much of that is not what it used to be. I think there's a straight path forward to employees over the next 25 years to want to work in higher ed on shorter timeframes. I think it will be more of an arc for the institutions themselves, meaning.

The institutions themselves are led by people who are typically not in their twenties and thirties are not from the gig economy. Yes. There are more, they're doing that. And almost every institution wants to play the game and talk that language. But in general, they're led by older individuals who did not come from that mindset and that professional development structure.

So straight ahead for people wanting it, not so simple for institutions to provide it. Then the real crystal ball. So what do you think's going to happen then Jim?

[00:17:00] I think that what people want as professionals and as persons is going to prevail and I think institutions are going to have to live with a no-harm-done employee who works for three and a half years and then leaves. That's going to be some getting used to. No, I should also qualify this. Although I wasn't faculty member for 30 years plus, and a provost, I don't really work with members of the faculty in terms of placing them. That is yet different.

We place administrators of all levels in all stripes. But I think there is a great reckoning coming from members of the faculty again, which I was one for 30 years. I think that they are going to work in shorter timeframes and I think they're going to have more mobile careers. So, what does that portend for, for tenure?

I don't have an answer to that. I think institutions will find their own paths, but I think tenure will change. I think it'll probably become a [00:18:00] rolling five-year contract in which there is security, but no longer will the word permanent be and if people who know tenure know that it's a guarantee of one-year contracts, it isn't permanent employment.

So I think that we're going to find tenure will probably change and there'll be trade-offs. If you want to be able to be mobile and move. But you're not going to carry tenure with you as you don't now.

[00:18:23] Andrew Hibel: And I'm going to apologize, cause I know there's probably a handful of listeners listening right now.

Who are literally grabbing their computers by the throat and screaming at us saying. What about adjuncts? And my good friend and colleague Kelly, who is served in an adjunct role for a couple of decades and use of going to pose a question to the two of you. I think it's an understatement to say that the transition to the adjunct being a permanent part of colleges, universities, which I think you can say now, was not necessarily a smooth one. If we're going to make a similar transition [00:19:00] where you're signing up for semesters and years on the administrative side. How can we take the lessons learned from adjuncts and apply it to administrative positions in the future?

[00:19:13] Kelly Cherwin: Well, I have a dual perspective. And you said I've been an adjunct for many years and I've been very fortunate to work for institutions who truly value and respect me. I think that's the biggest piece of advice I think transferring over is having institutions treat the adjunct as a true member of the community. Sometimes adjuncts are kind of on the side and forgotten and, uh, you know, yeah, you're just a, uh, a temporary semester to semester type employee. But once you are feeling that true sense of belonging and included in the whole academic community, be it an adjunct, be it an administrative assistant part of the leadership team.

I think that that changes. I think that's my advice to transfer over. So that's my perspective as an actual instructor, but in terms of [00:20:00] being the director of editorial strategy here at HigherEdJobs, we've had pieces, you know, touching on adjuncts and it definitely hits, hits a court. There's some adjuncts that unfortunately don't feel that value and don't get the compensation that they deserve. Don't get the feeling of like, oh, I'm going to be working again next semester. It's kind of a feeling of like, do I have a job? So, I'm not sure of Andy, is that what you were kind of looking at?

[00:20:28] Andrew Hibel: And I think it's maybe the, if you're looking down the generations from the boomers were Kelly and I are generation X, to the millennials. It's the decline of the promise of that is folks have kind of seen higher education and going into a faculty role as a tenure track position, finding that has become more and more elusive. And the splintering, even of faculty positions that are on the faculty, that aren't adjunct permanent positions that are non tenure track [00:21:00] also that those are highly, highly competitive. And it's, it's interesting as we sit here and we're recording this, I feel like I'm a little remiss not to mention the student debt here. That if you've gone and you've gotten a PhD and you've put yourself into debt with the promise of a tenure track position. And that's hard to obtain. Just because it doesn't necessarily exist the way that it did at the beginning of the process or at any point.

I think people feel like it's kind of that promise that's decreased. It makes the adjunct position a necessity. So the, in some focuses instances and that's, I think where the frustration with it is there. I think Kelly is correct. There are folks who, who are in those positions. Who really fits their needs and it's worked well. They're not the ones trying to choke the computer screen. Now, listening to us, they're the folks who this has worked well for, but I think when change happens like this.

The academic [00:22:00] community, we do change better slowly. And I think the velocity of that change probably went quicker than what happened in other industries where it was much easier to go to that more gig like based work.

[00:22:14] Dr. James Martin: I certainly want to be careful and respectful and commenting because I work now with interim leaders who are administrators and while, interim for the most part they're full-time some of them. Although, still not to your point. Some of them are interim part-time. That also is sometimes the case, but I want to be respectful. I was an adjunct for institutions in my career. And I remember it uh, freshly still, but I think that the best I can add building on what you just said, Andy and Kelly is that 10-year seem to be declining in number.

And I think that it will change going forward. And I think already it's changed that high on the hill that some days I'll be [00:23:00] fully employed. I don't know how many people in the gig economy want that. But the best I can say is that an interim leader? Is going to be free of the baggage. That's almost always true.

Free of the baggage of an institution and open to helping adjuncts advance. So the most positive glass, half full, I can say that is from my perspective, working with interim leaders, is it an interim academic Is going to come in, not laden with the backstories of adjunct life and maybe more open to employing a jokes. I love to be able to say, but I can't really say today that down the road there will be a meshing of the interim lifestyle and the interim professional objective and the adjunct that will in fact enhance both. I'm just not there yet in my own thinking, but it makes sense to me that the [00:24:00] driver of that, again, I don't think it's going to be colleges universities administratively. I think it's going to be people that are coming out of, to overuse the word, the gig economy, who are not looking for tenure.

I've met increasingly people who were not really seeking that they are seeking, uh, an invigorating engaging career. They want to make a difference. They want to be thanked for making a difference going forward. And tenure dare I say, for a rising number is not what they're really looking for. They're looking for being valued as professionals and being recognized for all the very hard work they earned.

In doing a PhD or a variety of terminal degrees. And 10 years easy. Oh, then you that you want tenure. I find that answer much more complex. No, not necessarily.

[00:24:54] Kelly Cherwin: The other thing I want you both to said, I agree. It's very complex. And like Andy said, the movement and higher [00:25:00] education is slow, but it's moving. I feel hopeful.

[00:25:02] Andrew Hibel: Thank you for sharing your crystal ball with us, Jim.

[00:25:05] Dr. James Martin: I'm respectful of the adjunct lifestyle. And I certainly hope any comments today about interims would be educated to how an adjunct may be able to advance for himself where he was an interim leader, but the business I'm in does not in fact work with adjuncts that much. So I don't want to, as I said, misspeak, or be perceived as being anything other than respectful and supportive.

[00:25:32] Andrew Hibel: I think the way folks are working since 2020 combined with the gig economy combined with whether it's a spouse or the ability to buy, on the Obamacare exchanges your own insurance and just personal preference of, of younger generations. When you kind of look into the crystal ball, it shows that we as an academic community, whether we're we're out there looking for a position or we're hiring for it, and it's goes [00:26:00] to your tenure comments as well Jim. That what folks were looking for possibly a little bit different than what folks have 10, 20, 25 years ago were looking for. And we kind of need to pay attention to that. Yeah. And that the world has changed and, um, to a certain degree we're changing slowly, but we're not changing as fast as the world is changing.

[00:26:21] Dr. James Martin: Here's a thought on that as we wind down. Uh, remembering when I was provost for a long time. Some of the most productive and creative conversations, respectful and supportive of adjuncts, who we hope are not always going to be adjuncts are in the academic committees on campus that can actively bundle the courses adjuncts teach into a full-time load. No, not a tenure track load. That's not quite the goal. But can bundle some of the most creative conversations, I remember, were chief academic officers who [00:27:00] had an open mind and an open heart to working with junks to bundle them into a full-time load. If they wanted it, as you just said, Andy, sometimes they are not seeking that. But if they want to add a full-time salary, and benefits, but not tenure track. So there, I do see it meshing, but the adjunct course load bundled into a full-time load in many might be unhappy with that. I understand. But it would be progress for institutions and I've seen it to begin to do that, it lowers the number of adjuncts working at the periphery of the fringes and it adds them to the full-time faculty, but they're not tenure track.

Now some would say, well, we've always had that Jim. We've always had that. What I'm describing is an intentional strategy for an institution to do that on a sustained basis. To strengthen the faculty and support adjuntcs that's the most concrete answer I can provide to that, remembering how some provosts have really prevailed with that as a [00:28:00] strategy, as long as it's intentional.

[00:28:03] Andrew Hibel: Thank you for sharing that Jim. I think that's, that's really helpful.

[00:28:04] Dr. James Martin: Yes. It's a pleasure to be with you. And I would be glad to come back at your request to continue the conversations. It's a pleasure. And I'm a, as you both know a tremendous supporter of what you do. Tremendous support, happy to be associated with you.

[00:28:20] Kelly Cherwin: Thank you, it was so nice speaking with you today.

[00:28:24] Andrew Hibel: Kelly, it was wonderful. Having Jim on the show today.

[00:28:26] Kelly Cherwin: I agree. I loved learning about his insights into the interim world.

[00:28:30] Andrew Hibel: I enjoyed that as well. We're also very interested in your insights. So please reach out to us at podcast@higheredjobs.com. Or tweet us @higheredjobs and let us know what you think of the potential of being an interim or the value of possibly hiring. And while you're at it. Also, let us know if you have any opinions on how the adjunct world may inform a future interim administrative world. We’d be interested in hearing your thoughts. [00:29:00] Thank you again for listening.