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[00:00:00] Andrew Hibel: Welcome to the HigherEdJobs Podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer, and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

[00:00:11] Kelly Cherwin: And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy here at HigherEdJobs. Today, we're having a conversation with Dr. Shai L Butler, who is the interim vice president for advancement and external affairs at Springfield Technical Community College.

Dr. Shai has progressively been employed as a leader in higher education for over two decades. She's a writer, blogger, speaker, professional coach, and we're proud that she's a regular contributor for HigherEdJobs. We're honored to have her as our guest today. Thank you again, Shai so much for joining us today.

We are so excited to talk to you. So, as I mentioned, we're going to talk a little bit about your article that you recently wrote for us ‘Withdrawing Your Candidacy: Choose Wisely.’ So, my first question is what prompted you to talk about this topic and, and write this article for us?

[00:00:58] Dr. Shai Butler: Well, first of all, thanks for having [00:01:00] me, Kelly.

I really appreciate being here and having this important conversation, I would have to say what really prompted me was some of my own internal consummation that I'd been going through for the past several years. Almost like a jump rope for any of you within 40 who's ever played Double Dutch, a game familiar on most urban playgrounds, you kind of hedge out the rope and you pick your time you're in and out and you're trying to decide, do I jump in now or do I not? And so this was my lived experience, this game of Double Dutch with my career. And do I take the seat of, of going for the presidency now? Um, even though I have all of these things happening in my life that I care so deeply about and want to be good at all of them.

You know, there's a saying, and the saying is you can have it all, but not at the same [00:02:00] time. And I refuse to accept that. Um, I wanted to have it all and I wanted it all at the time I wanted it. And as reality began dawn on me that I couldn't do it all. Well, I could have it all. I couldn't do it all well. I made a leap and I made a decision and it was a decision that went against what mentors, friends, colleagues, others would have wanted or expected of me. And then I found myself having to explain and justify that decision. And I wanted to write about that experience. I wanted to write about what went into the decision making. I wanted to write about the feelings. I wanted to share pieces of my life in a very transparent way, because I felt that it could help others who were going through the same things and low and behold from the feedback that I've gotten through and depth of emails. Um, many others were at the gratitude. The immense [00:03:00] gratitude that uh, I've received has, has been confirmation, uh, of, of the choice and decision to write about it.

[00:03:10] Kelly Cherwin: That’s great. I, I love the analogy of the Double Dutch, cause I'm just envisioning that right now, how you're trying to balance everything and making sure the ropes are, are going, how they're supposed to go. And I can appreciate your idea that you want to do everything and do it well. I feel that same as a, as a working mom, you know, balancing work and kids’ schedules and, and you know, everything as, I mean, I'm speaking from the women perspective, we wanna do it all and do it well.

Sometimes it takes a little bit of courage to kind of say, you know what, like maybe I do need to, to, to step back and focus on this part because I wanna do this really well. It doesn't mean that you're not going to do the other part well now or later, but I think that's a great thing that you did. And actually a sentence that you stated in your article, which I absolutely love was, ‘with not a shred of regret, but a strong sense of relief that the decision had finally been made.’

You know, it sounds like you had a great support system and your, your [00:04:00] husband and, you know, it talks like, it sounds like you talked to, obviously you probably talked to your kids and coworkers and mentors and you know, not everyone agreed, but I guess I should back up a little bit, like how you kind of got to that point.

And then when you finally made that decision, how did it empower you?

[00:04:13] Dr. Shai Butler: When I finally made that decision, an opportunity had been presented. That was a lateral move. It was presented as we have this position, you’re pretty well networked can help us. And so I said, absolutely. So I read the position and it's funny because it wasn't a position that had ever held a title for before, was no upward progression in alignment with the current role, I have certainly transferable skills and I certainly need that case. Obviously I wouldn’t be sitting in the room, but it was a lateral move. I had given up on this notion of lateral moves because I was on the upward trajectory. But I [00:05:00] sat with it for a while. I talked about it with my husband, with my Sherpas, what I like to call my mentors, with my girlfriends, you know, with my board of directors. And again, some just couldn't see it. And some said, we just want you to be happy. And you know, at the end of the day, Kelly, I had been talking too much and not listening enough, not listening to my inner voice, to that spiritual side of me that comes from my faith tradition.

I was just doing too many lists, pros and cons. I wasn't doing and focusing on this, not in, in my stomach, that was saying, you know, every time I would get close to the opportunity, uh, for the presidency or was making great progress in the search that I had absolutely no peace. And I was ignoring that side of me because I was living in my head space [00:06:00] and my head space was telling me, this is the right thing. This is the next step. There needs to be more women presidents. There needs to be more black women presidents. You have a unique lens. Who's coming through student success. You understand students, there are all these great things that you would bring to a presidency that others were telling me, or that I was telling myself I was rationalizing against what my heart was telling me. So I was living in a head space when I needed to be in a heart and head space. And that's why I didn't have peace. That's why the process that I utilized was helpful. It helped me to be more self-intuitive. It helped me to ask myself the right questions. It helped me to hear from and acknowledge my old friends.

Cause sometimes as women you can underestimate or undervalue our strength. So it was good to bounce ideas off of individuals for that reason. But ultimately at the end of the day, people [00:07:00] can love you. People can support you. People can respect you. People who know you, but there comes a moment when you have to make the decision and then you have to live with the outcomes of that decision.

And that's a heavy weight, one I was not willing to give away. One I was going to own, and when I made that decision, best night sleep I had, and I just want to say in response to the people who have been emailing me and have been relating to the article and their own decision making processes and sharing stories, it has been [indecipherable]. So that I, you know, was a nice surprise for me, because I think when I approached it from this lens of, I thought maybe more women are in this space and I certainly believe that women, I, I have not done a survey on this. So anything I would say would be more anecdotal than anything, but for me, it showed my own biases that I was surprised when a vice chancellor [00:08:00] emailed me that they too had gone through, a male, similar age, a similar decision making similar concerns and that the freedom that he felt in reading my article and knowing that it was okay to say not now.

[00:08:16] Andrew Hibel: I was struck by the piece while it's talking about withdrawing your candidacy, it really goes at the core question of why for any candidacy that you put yourself into. You stated at one point in the piece, and I do quote here a little bit tongue in cheek. I think you've said this ‘experience has taught me mine and others, that when one makes the decision, that's time to shoot for the moon we often don't let little things like crazy bosses, structural deficits, or unexplainable raised hairs on the back of our necks stop us from launching forward to reach the coveted goal of being a college president, provost, vice president, dean, where the promotional opportunity list goes on, warnings or not.’

I've always thought of that as the launch sequence, once you're [00:09:00] in a candidacy and you've launched the launch sequence, and I think that's, this is what makes it interesting about removing the candidacy. You're fighting one of the toughest forces out there. This is like having like warm smelling cookies sitting right next to you and trying not to eat them.

And you're trying to resist what's out there where you're subconscious is going the other way. I think that experience is universal. I don't think it knows any type of position, industry, gender, race. It is a universal experience where people go into it and you can insert whatever the blank is like you did there.

Why they did that? Why am I doing this? I've always kind of wondered how do we avoid getting ourselves into that situation? How do you not even initiate the launch sequence, so you don't have to remove yourself from it because it's a powerful force to break from. Have you ever had any thoughts about, okay, now I've done this, I've withdrawn it.

Now, before I put [00:10:00] my hat in the ring, what are the questions you're asking yourself now?

[00:10:02] Dr. Shai Butler: Well for me Andy, thank you for saying that the decision to withdraw part of writing that article and publicly owning and saying out loud to this community of professionals and scholars, I’m off the market right now everyone.

This public statement. Through this article shuts a door for me right now, at least for the next three years, because think about it. I go out and apply for presidency right now when they Google you and they do, and this article comes up, I can see myself being asked six months ago, you wrote a piece and said you were going to put this job search in the parking lot.

Why would we hire right now? I understood that when I was writing this article, what it would mean yet I intentionally went forward because I wanted to take away the temptation to flip flop, which sometimes we do and put myself back in [00:11:00] to this cycle of, wow, when I said that, when I said I was going to do a lateral move and, and be happy with my decision.

Well, that was before this vacancy opened up and now look, here's my dream job and I am in this other role. I guess what intentionality is, what I would say, is once you've landed on decision and you found peace, stick with it, take yourself out of the emotional realm, give space before you made the decision to maybe think and say, you know, did I do the wrong thing?

Was I too soon? Was it the right decision? If you are thinking of reversing something that you agonized over and you felt really good about when you made that choice, sit, remember why you made that decision. If it was because of a loved one. [00:12:00] Think about how your life has been or improved or is on a path of improvement that made you come to the point of making the choice that you made in the first place.

So when I look at my life right now and what I'm able to balance and do well, I am able to challenge myself in a new way. And still be the wife I wanna be, the mom I wanna be, the friend I wanna be, the writer I wanna be, I'm working on a book right now. I'm able to still do those things. Whereas if I had assumed that potential opportunity, some of those things that are very important to me would've needed to be set aside.

So I guess if I were to say, the temptation to eat that cookie comes at a cost and I need to be very clear with myself. You've been down this road before, you know, there's this old story that talks about person out for a walk walking around this, [00:13:00] going down the street and they fall into a hole. The next day they go down the same street they fall into a hole. The third day, they finally figure out, go down a different street and there's more to the story than that. But in a shortened version, when you find yourself going down the same path that you've been before and catch yourself at the beginning, don't apply for the job. Don't I guess I can't say don't even go to HigherEdJobs.

Just read articles, stay away from the vacancy section, stay away, you know, from the open positions, you know, cancel your job, search, leave the articles and enjoy all the other things there are to enjoy about HigherEdJobs.com, but don't tempt yourself. And especially remember why you made the decision you made, know that every day is not going to be perfect.

It's not going to look the way you envisioned it looking every day or maybe even [00:14:00] not right away, but if you approached it in the right way with head and heart, then find contentment in that space.

[00:14:09] Andrew Hibel: The sentence I probably liked the most and the entire piece was after you'd made the decision.

You came to the conclusion that you were withdrawing, your candidacy, you said that night I experienced the best night's sleep that I'd had in months. To me, it spoke that when your subconscious knows, your subconscious knows, we know those things inside of us and listening to ourselves can be so difficult that night's sleep, that test, that pillow test if you will talk to me why you felt at that point, you wanted to share that first of all, cause that's a pretty personal statement to make, but two, what do you think it represented to you moving forward? Was that a place where you could turn the corner and look towards the next opportunity you were headed towards and enjoy your life the way you wanted to in [00:15:00] a, in a pandemic world? What were you thinking?

[00:15:03] Dr. Shai Butler: I think that when I go around and I'm speaking to different audiences, usually audiences, but sometimes audiences in general, I'm always struggled by the fact that people are looking for maybe three things, peace, purpose, and love. And within that, I struggled with the fact that I had love, I had love and I knew no matter what decision I came to my husband made it very clear he would support me. He would work it out. So I wasn't ever in jeopardy of losing love for my family, friends, mentors, children. But, you know, we always think about making decisions that will please other people or will have us to maintain the law that we have in our lives. That was not a threat for me. What was, was [00:16:00] that acknowledging the fact that within me, I have love. I have love for my children or my husband or my friends, for my, I have love for my life right now. And that needs to go and be part of this deeper contemplation about this career choice and decision, because I would be in some ways, diminishing my ability to live out and live with that love because I would be doing less of the things I love to pursue career title, position, the ability to make an impact, which is important to me, but I had that love piece. And how much was I going to compromise it for a sense of purpose now. Purpose, let's talk about this purpose thing, right? That was my struggle is this God's way of, because these presidencies are opening or giving me this sign, that this is part of my purpose and what I'm supposed to be doing [00:17:00] with my life.

Right. But you know, one of the things I say when I speak about purpose, and I do believe people have more than one purpose in their lives, but we talk about purpose is that there's only one, but I say if the creator gives you 80 years of life on average. Do you really think that a brilliant, smart, knowledgeable of all creation entity would give you one purpose in 80 years?

No, we have multiple purposes that come to fruition at multiple times. So timing is key when it comes to purpose and that every role you are in every season of life, every job that you hold, you have a purpose for that time at that place. So you have to be willing to let go of this notion of this or out there in the future thing that is for my purpose and my purpose in the day, find [00:18:00] purpose in the role and know that any higher purpose that is beyond the purpose of the day will reveal itself and manifest itself in time. And being able to believe that requires courage, finding that courage with love in my life and the deeper understanding of purpose and the timing aspects connected with purpose.

Being able to receive that in my heart space and not just my head space, my heart always knew my subconscious, as you both always knew that this was not the right time. It took my head a while to catch him like that. And so it was this inner war going on inside of me. Peace was negotiated. A truth was negotiated between head and heart.

And we landed at a good space in which I have peace. I have purpose. I have love and [00:19:00] therefore I'm happy.

[00:19:01] Kelly Cherwin: Shai that's those words are absolutely amazing. I must say I just, I absolutely love what you, what you just mentioned there, everything about it. So I think it's safe to say that you are happy in your transition to your new position.

Can you just tell me a little bit, like what you're doing there and what your purpose is there and the, the gifts that you're sharing to your higher ed community?

[00:19:20] Dr. Shai Butler: I’m just three months and a week into the role. So some of that is still being worked out in the new capacity, uh, the role functions, but I have to tell you I'm loving it.

I have no regrets. My mentor has always said to me, 90 days, you don't know a job. You don't a boss. You don't know a man. We don't know a husband. We don't know a friend. You don't know any, you don't know anyone until 90 days, that's when it ends. And then you, you know, if you sort of landed in a good space because everyone's afraid for the first month and everyone's [00:20:00] happy to have you and everyone is just excited. So I reach my 90 day mark and I am still happy in this role and happy with this decision and no regrets. I mean, I feel like I came in, I was able to make, um, an immediate impact. I work with a group of individuals who are talented and gifted and are doing meaningful work in this community.

I am at a community college now and it's my first time ever being at a community college. I chose this role with intentionality because I aspire to be a community college president one day. That is where I think that I most fault to make an impact and the way I'm doing it now and the title is, uh, interim vice president for external advancement and external affairs.

So now I'm actually getting to go out there and talk to others, donors, alumni, and others about what it is [00:21:00] that I really spent my life trying to build through student success through DEI work and seeing it all manifest with students at the community college and getting, getting to go out and be an ambassador of student success and actually raise funds for student success and actually get others to understand student success and, and how we help students succeed. That's amazing. It's a different side of the house. Whereas before it was direct contact with students through my career upward path has been more in line with DEI work and student affairs through development and student success.

So I've done the work. And now I get to talk about the work. I get to bring others on board and say, Hey, this is what's happening in higher education. This is what higher education needs, we need you. And here's why, so that's been great. So the external affairs piece, the government relations piece is [00:22:00] also it's, it's new for me.

I've done it in smaller capacities in my previous roles, but having it now, being able to talk to legislative leaders understand policy, my my degree is in policy it's actually my doctorate was in law policy. So being able to apply that knowledge with experience has just been amazing. So I'm loving the role Kelly, and I'm, I'm really glad that I'm able to cross sectors and stay within higher education.

So now under my belt, I have public research. I have private and now I have community college.

[00:22:37] Kelly Cherwin: I have one last question. It's based on a comment you made earlier, and after what I just heard you say, you said you made a lateral move, but is there really such a thing as a lateral move? Because the growth and development and the energy and the excitement and what you've learned so far in three months, it seems amazing.

So do you really think you made a lateral move and what advice would you give to job seekers or people who might be in your position that are like, oh, I don't know if I should do a lateral [00:23:00] move. So it, it seems like it's just been wonderful for you.

[00:23:04] Dr. Shai Butler: Yeah. Thank you for saying that. I guess that's me using industry speak, but you're right.

Thank you for adding to my and expanding my understanding of that because you're right. Even though it's a comparable title in terms of vice president, vice president, as opposed to vice president to president, it is an expansion. It's an expansion of my knowledge base. It provides an opportunity for me to grow as a professional, as well as a person I've found in the short time that I've been here.

So it's, it's all about the lens you bring, right. And the outlook. So thank you. Yes, I would agree. I don't know that I would call it a lateral move.

[00:23:42] Andrew Hibel: Thank you for your time Shai, it's been lovely to be able to get some time with you and hear the story behind the story here, because I think it really lends a lot of insights that so many people can relate to and also learn from.

[00:23:54] Kelly Cherwin: I agree. I really enjoyed our conversation. And as you know, you inspire me and I know you inspire a lot of other [00:24:00] people out there, so continue to do the work that you do. We, we appreciate you.

[00:24:03] Dr. Shai Butler: Oh thank you both. It has been a joy talking with you and, um, I love writing for HigherEdJobs. I think it's a great publication that’s so needed in our industry and we do great work. So thank you for all that you do.

[00:24:24] Andrew Hibel: I found it fun discussing where we'd go from there and the idea would be revisiting a piece we had on the site a few years back called ‘Career Advice I Wish I'd Known a Decade Ago’ in reflecting on the 10 years prior to the ‘08 ‘09 recession. We thought, Hey, this would be kind of fun to say you can never really look forward where your career's going to go, but you can kind of look where you've been.

And look back like what would've been good to know at that point and would've helped our career through the pandemic. Before we go too deep into this. Could you summarize the article that was on the site a little bit, Kelly, you're more [00:25:00] familiar with it than I am.

[00:25:01] Kelly Cherwin: Sure. I love Eileen's opening paragraph where she said ‘you may regard who you were a decade ago as a person early remote from who you are today. That version of you existed at a different stage of growth and in different circumstances, but he or she also brought you to your current level of awareness. The truth is we are different than we were 10 years ago.’

I know I have definitely grown personally and professionally over the past decade. And this article talks about some, some things that professionals can do to set their careers up for success, to be better equipped, to be effective in the workplace.

So instead of summarizing the entire article, I'll just go over one of Eileen's first highlights. And she said, inviting mentorship, which I think is a big thing that I wish I would've done years ago. So Andy, I selected this article. I was just curious if you had any takeaways on mentorship.

[00:25:49] Andrew Hibel: I thought Alice Jones, the title nine coordinator at Roosevelt University at the time said that quote, ‘My mentor is brilliant. She is not only brilliant in the academic sense, but in terms of [00:26:00] emotional intelligence, she has taught me to come correct and do my prep work in any given situation and control what I can. She has taught me not to back away from difficult decisions and all our critical decisions in surviving higher education.’

I thought that was pretty powerful. I think it really reflects well on the benefits of mentoring for a mentee. Kelly knowing you've been a mentor before. What do you think the values of mentoring is for the mentor in terms of professional growth?

[00:26:29] Kelly Cherwin: There's value both ways. I've been honored to be a mentor.

I've obviously made mistakes over the years, but if I can pass along some knowledge of how to prevent someone else making those mistakes or how to better approach a problem, preparing for things. Asking questions. I think that's a big thing I've learned through the years. I remember as an undergraduate in a large classroom, and I felt like I was lost in the sea and I was afraid to ask questions.

And I think that's what a mentee needs to know from the person they're working with, that they should ask questions and [00:27:00] take the experience that that mentor has gained over the years and try to implement that into their, their work situation. I mentioned taking risks. I, in the article, there's a section about taking risks.

Andy, what would your advice be for someone who might be scared to take a risk? What could the benefit be?

[00:27:17] Andrew Hibel: Well, Kelly, the easy answer for this being one of the first episode of our podcast is do not consider doing a podcast as a way to do it. Um, risk taking is not ubiquitous. Taking a risk is not like buying a can of soup.

Not all risks are the same. Any good investor would tell you, risk always needs to be balanced with reward. The thought is to maximize the value of the reward and minimize the risk. I'd also say it's the priority of the value. If there's a high value and a possible high reward and a low risk, that's probably a pretty easy risk to take.

But I think if you're looking at something that would be considered traditionally like a reckless risk, it might be of high value, but it's not really a high priority for you. [00:28:00] There's a lot of risk. That's kind of a reckless risk to take. I think if you're looking at taking a risk in higher education, looking at an opportunity where you can do something and gain some skills that help you develop professionally without changing jobs without moving your family, that build some skills that you might have that matter in your career, that would be great, not too much risk there and a lot of reward that's a priority for you, but doing so for an unstable situation because of the department you're moving into and moving your family halfway across the country for that opportunity, that's one of those risks where there may be some value to it, but there's a heck of a lot of risk to that and trying to balance those I think is, is kind of the.

[00:28:45] Kelly Cherwin: I know you talked a lot about risks, and I think you'd agree that with risk comes some anxiety. I wanted to mention a, a quote in the article, dealing with anxiety and how people react in different ways. So there is a section that said ‘the political uncertainness can lead to [00:29:00] a feeling of powerlessness. People deal with anxiety of powerlessness in different ways.’ And this person speaking said, she takes this approach. When she tells her students ‘let's make a plan, assuming the program or policy will remain as it is. Then let's plan to revisit it if the legislation or university policy changes,’ I don't know how you feel, but I really like this advice.

Let's take it one day at a time and control what we can control and yeah, there's going to be risks like you said, in our career. There's going to be times that where we're just, we're scared to ask questions. We're, we're scared of the unknown. I'm curious to see what your thoughts are on the statement about the dealing with anxiety and feeling powerless.

[00:29:38] Andrew Hibel: Maybe before I, I offer some thoughts, can we agree that powerlessness is a part of any position that you're in. It's easy to see the powerlessness in your situation, but understand that no matter where you are in the organizational chart, you're not going to be completely powered over your own situation. Well, you can say, well, what about the president of the university?

They can do whatever they want. No, there's, there's always a [00:30:00] board of directors. And, well, what about the chair of the board of directors? Well, the chair of the board of directors is accountable to the other directors on that board. Everybody has stakeholders and constituencies that they need to serve. So I think the question of powerlessness, I think it's very isolating in a position where it seems to be too much and that's where the anxiety comes from.

But if you're in a situation where the powerlessness of your situation is so prohibitive in accomplishing what your job duties are, I think that's where it gets to be a little bit more on the challenging side. Trying to learn to live with powerlessness and sometimes the anxiety it creates is probably a part of just about every job.

One of the parts of the article that struck me the most was talking about creating an authentic voice. Kelly, what do you think is the best advice on creating an authentic voice for a professional in higher education?

[00:30:55] Kelly Cherwin: I'm going to have to steal the thought that the author had when she said that ‘I've [00:31:00] learned that an ego will rarely ever serve you well in your work.’

I really do agree with that coming into a conversation, feeling like you're already better than someone else and portraying that to them. It's not going to be taken as authentic. So I, I advise people to be their true self don't pretend to try to be someone else. Don't talk about all your accomplishments in the first two minutes of the conversation, let people know how genuine you are, your passion for higher education, your passion for your position, and invite them to talk about their passion.

You know, emotional intelligence was discussed earlier, and I strongly believe in being emotionally intelligent, being aware of your surroundings, being aware of other people's feelings and emotions and implementing that into the workplace and being authentic in that. We've been talking about career advice I wish I'd known a decade ago and we've discussed mentorship, taking risks, creating an authentic voice.

I'm just curious, Andy, is there anything that is not in this article around this list that you feel like should be?

[00:31:58] Andrew Hibel: I think [00:32:00] clearly the one item, although all three items kind of revolve around it is joining and participating in a professional association in higher education. I think if you take the time and energy to really immerse yourself into a higher education professional association. The return on your investment is possibly the best return you're going to see in your career in higher education. People who take time, get involved, tend to learn a lot about what to do in their job and how to do it well, and get to know other peers who do it well.

And we're in this wonderful profession where the peers are all very collaborative. Peers are not here trying to keep the secret Coke recipe from the Pepsi people. They're trying to say, this is what works for me at my institution and I'd love to share with you how it could work at yours. We have a very large and robust number of associations for any profession or academic discipline in higher education.

And we here at HigherEdJobs from the beginning have said [00:33:00] joining that is probably the most important thing you can do for your career.

[00:33:02] Kelly Cherwin: Andy, thanks so much for talking about the associations. I think that's a great point. And I think you and I could probably sit here and talk for another hour on ways that we could advance our careers. So I think we should turn it over to our listeners and see what they want to add to this list. Please email us@podcasthigheredjobs.com or message us on Twitter @HigherEdJobs.

[00:33:24] Andrew Hibel: Which kind of leads us, I think, to our, our poll question for this episode, which is, do you plan on increasing your activity in a professional association in 2022?

Please hit us at Twitter. We're at, at HigherEdJobs.com. The poll will be there. Also, if you're in your HigherEdJobs account, that poll will also be in your HigherEdJobs account. And if you have thoughts on anything we've discussed in this part of the podcast, please email us at podcast@HigherEdJobs.com or send a message to us at HigherEdJobs.

Cause we really do want to hear what you think, and [00:34:00] we definitely will discuss the results of that poll in our podcast. Thank you for listening.