E15
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[00:00:00] Andrew Hibel: I'm Andy Hibel. I'm the chief operating officer and co-founder of HigherEdJobs

[00:00:05] Kelly Cherwin: And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy here at HigherEdJobs.

[00:00:10] Andrew Hibel: Welcome to the HigherEdJobs Podcast. Our topic today is how do we embed diversity, equity, equality, and inclusion in academia?

[00:00:18] Shai Butler: Today we're very fortunate to have Dr. Shai L. Butler as our guest, Shai is currently the interim vice president for advancement in external. At Springfield Technical Community College in Springfield, Massachusetts, and has also held previous roles in higher education as the chief diversity officer, the vice president for student success and engagement in addition to others over her career.

Welcome Shai, we're delighted to have you with us today.

Shai Butler: Thank you, Kelly. And thank you, Andy. It's my pleasure to be here.

[00:00:46] Andrew Hibel: Shai, before one can look forward. One has to make an honest assessment of where one is and one has been. Where does diversity equity, equality, and inclusion stand on campuses today? And how would you describe the progress or [00:01:00] lack thereof from where it's been?

[00:01:01] Shai Butler: Thank you for the question, Andy. I think it's very important to understand where we are, we need to first take a look back and understand the history of DEEI on our campuses. The prominence of focus. Really has been seasonal or cyclical and, and really is oftentimes tied to what's happening in society at large.

By example, if you look at the era, in which in our country, a more recent era, when we were establishing ethnic studies programs, maybe about 50 or so years ago, and they were emerging on college campuses across the country. Even look at when we were establishing our LGBT advocacy positions and offices across the nation we were doing so around a time of maybe civil unrest, protests.

It was a lot going on in society that made higher ed feel, there needs to be some sort of [00:02:00] response. We need to be studying this. We need to know more about this. We need to be out front on this. And our way of being out front has been to be responsive, almost counterintuitive. Right. But higher ed has been really more responsive, I would say than out front on these matters, even though the protests and the unrest have played out on our campuses and have prompted us to sort of create and then advance, uh, the work of DEEI. I would say today, the work, you know, centrality to institutional strategy and mission has really ebbed and flowed. And it's really picked up again in more recent years, as we turned our attention to societal problems, more recently thinking of the killing, starting back with Trayvon Martin. I'm sure there were more before, but that seemed to be a catalyst, uh, and sort of this awakening for our country back to the violence, um, that we can trace back to Emmett Till and further back to slavery and reconstruction. And [00:03:00] the first time African Americans may have even landed on this shore, but thinking in more recent history, thinking about Trayvon and going in a few years forward to George Floyd or Brianna Taylor, I would say that in DEEI we've witnessed this resurgence of the work.

And you're absolutely right. It's, it's really rooted in, in history.

Kelly Cherwin: Thank you. Shai, I, I think an important thing to recognize is the actual definitions. I know we were talking a lot about, you know, diversity, equity, equality, and inclusion. And I just wanna reference an article that you wrote for us. You discussed the differences between those words.

So, I was just wondering in your own words, what do those words of diversity equity, equality, and inclusion mean to you?

Shai Butler: Some of it is standardized by Merriam Webster and some of it I try to just think through and reflect on and personalize in a way that is easier for me to understand it, as well as be able to share and articulate that difference to a wide range of audiences.[00:04:00]

I like to think that my way of communicating, even though I have the academic credentials and working in academia, I tend to like to be the, the way maybe Howard Zinn is to history, just the person who just speaks plainly and gives examples that are easy for everyone to follow. No matter whether they have what we call from ABCs to PhDs.

So for me, diversity very simply put means difference. So there are different types of persons or things. Just means difference, not universal, not the same. Inclusion means difference, but sort of an immersive experience. And we used to say, oh, the melting pot, the melting pot. But then as we began to get more socially conscious, we realized that the melting pot means that I really have to sort of blend and become something else.

To be a part of, to [00:05:00] be considered, uh, accepted, to be included. So the term inclusion has even in, in my understanding has evolved in a way that it's an immersive experience that doesn't call for me to lose my identity in order to be a part of a community. Sometimes when I'm talking about these two terms, interchangeably in a training, I like to use the party analogy.

So I give the example in the form of, of I'm hosting a party or say you are hosting a party and you invite me to the party. You can really make sure that you invite a diverse group of individuals. You could look at everything from age to gender, to gender identity, to socioeconomics, to race. And you can say, I am going to have a representative group of everyone at my party.

So you do that, you send out invitations, you get a great response rate, everyone shows up. And so we're there. We're all standing around at your house at your party. You're [00:06:00] passing the Crudités and everything. Everything is good, right? But we're not really talking. We're not really engaging. We're just kind of there.

Where diversity and inclusion differs is that you've invited me to this great party and diversity is in the room, but now someone comes over to me and they invite me into a conversation. With these different individuals. And then another person comes over and invites me to the dance floor. And then before, you know, it, there's all this activity and there's all this engagement and there's all this busyness in some corners there's debate and in some corners there's laughter.

But to me, uh, that's a very visual way that I see how inclusion differs from diversity, not just inviting me to the party, but asking me to dance. Whereas equality. When I think about equality, something to be reached, something may be aspirational, something, but even beyond that, if equality is a [00:07:00] goal, let's take a step back.

What is equality by definition? Equality, maybe by definition is, is dividing. A whole into equal parts. So if we use the analogy, I love social analogies. So I'll use a pie in this instance, we're coming into some holidays. Um, and, and so pie is on the brain these days. So if I think about the whole of a pie and I divide that pie into equal parts then, and if give everyone an equal amount, then that is equality.

Whereas equity is something different. Equity, if we look at that same pie and take that same hole, I'm not dividing it into equal parts. I'm actually dividing it in accordance to the needs of each recipient. So, and that may be based on how hungry one is. That may be based on my knowledge of the last time the person ate.

There could be a myriad of reasons why I choose to slice the pie the way I [00:08:00] slice, but my goal is to slice it in a way that will ultimately at the end feel as full as if we each had a same equal amount of pie. So some may. A larger slice. Some may receive less and some may not receive any, but at the end will all be equally satisfied because now equality exists.

So those are just some ways that I think about diversity, equality, equity, and inclusion.

[00:08:31] Andrew Hibel: Shai thank you for sharing. I believe that's gonna really help. A lot of people have a deeper knowledge of the issues and hopefully what they can do to be part of a solution. And when I personally look at the issue, it's clear that the solution is that we are all responsible for making the changes to further DEEI.

Where do we find the common ground to forge the understanding to make that progress with one another? [00:09:00]

[00:09:00] Shai Butler: Mm, thank you, Andy. That's a very good question. The common ground, I would say that for me, I've learned the most and grown the most, not when I'm preparing for a lecture or when I'm talking either in conversation or in debate.

I found that I've learned the most when I'm willing to listen. And not just listen with my ears, but listen, listen, in a way that's a little bit deeper. Listen with my heart and mind listening from this place where I'm not in a, a stance of judgment, because something that I may have just heard or something that I perceive you're about to say is just diametrically opposed to my core values and beliefs, but listening from a, a stance of openness. And so the common ground, I think, begins with positioning oneself and a stance of openness without judgment, and really coming into a conversation in [00:10:00] that way. Not necessarily fully unguarded. But, but being open to hearing those things that you might agree with or those things that you might just be opposed to, even beyond that, what I have learned in study is that there's a model called cultural humility and I've, I've spoken about that model in different spaces and places. It started out in healthcare and public health. And then it's expanded more into the DEEI realm in higher education. And, and what I really like about that model, what that model is encompassed of are, are three core elements, the first being a lifelong commitment to building self-awareness and self-evaluation. So I talked about the importance of listening. Well, if I'm not self-aware then I won't even know that I'm not listening. I won't know my listening stance. I won't be able to assess and [00:11:00] evaluate where I am that day.

Am I in a frame of mind that I can listen, am I in the head space. Am I in a physical space? Where am I? How do I take my own temperature to really be self-aware with an understanding of not just where I am today and am I in a position to listen, but where am I on this continuum of diversity, inclusion, equity, equality?

Where do I see myself? Where do those who are most closest to me? See me? Who's whose input I. And sometimes we don't always have the correct notion of where we are. So I would say a commitment to continuing, even if I think I am more advanced than maybe I really am. I still remain committed to building this lifelong stance in positioning of being self-aware and self evaluatory.

Secondly in the model, a commitment to identify and repair power [00:12:00] imbalances in order to advance an equity agenda, you know, going back to what we said about equity and what equity is when things are not equal, and then there's a need for an equity agenda. It's usually because there are imbalances of power.

So where am I in my commitment to acknowledge that there are in society, power imbalances. Some that work in my favor based on my identity and some that work against me based on my identity and that holds true for every person. And then thirdly, taking action to partner as equals across identities. That means with disenfranchised groups, with marginalized groups and why to disrupt systems of oppression. So this is where we come together to partner. And what I like about this model is it acknowledges that sometimes we can come together we can say that we're coming together to partner, but we don't necessarily see each [00:13:00] other's as equal. So what you find is you come in with this notion of, I am the fixer.

I am the great savior. I am the person who shows up, who can carry the water to help this group or this cause move forward. But no, no. If we come in with this, this shared respect and see each other as equals across our identities, then we can acknowledge that there may be those who've been kept out of the power paradigm.

Those who are disenfranchised or marginalized groups and place them in a place of power as we develop solutions, all working collect together to disrupt systems of oppression.

[00:13:38] Andrew Hibel: Thank you, Shai. That was fantastic. Please email us at podcast@higheredjobs.com or tweet us @higheredjobs and let us know what your thoughts are as far as how you feel you can make a difference in furthering diversity, equity, equality, and inclusion. We all want to hear them.

[00:13:57] Kelly Cherwin: Shai I want to talk about another article that you recently wrote for [00:14:00] us. And it has to deal with engaging with one another and closing the knowledge gap and working together to close these trust gaps. I was hoping you could explain a bit more what you mean by these gaps and why it's important to talk about these gaps when we're discussing DEEI.

Shai Butler: Well, I think referencing back to the model of cultural humility and that first tenant of self-awareness. I think that to be able to own the fact that one does not know everything, I am not all knowing. I may know a lot about a few things, but I am not all knowing and even within the work of DEEI, I may have 14 plus years experience, but I can tell you that I know more about some aspects of the work, some demographic aspects of the work than I do about others. So with a sense of humility, knowing and approaching every conversation from this vantage point, that there's always something I can learn, even if it is an area that I think I bring great expertise and I may bring [00:15:00] great expertise.

Through listening, there's always something I can learn and being open to that. And that's how we close the knowledge gap by first, realizing that there is a knowledge gap that I don't know that we are all on a continuum of learning and understanding, and that we're all at different places, but it's also about taking ownership for where I am.

And not expecting others to carry my water, not expecting others to be my teacher. So if there's things that I don't know about a certain community, certain demographic, then it is my responsibility first and foremost, to seek out knowledge and information and not to superimpose that on others to say ‘Hey, teach me’ unless of course you're being paid to teach me.

And I'm sitting in a class on, on, uh, something related to DEEI or I'm at a training related to DEEI. But when I leave that training, when I leave that [00:16:00] class and when I leave a conversation, a social conversation where then is my responsibility to continue the learning. That's how, that's what I mean about knowledge gap, understanding that we don't know everything. Understanding there's a lot to learn. How do we position ourselves to learn? How do we take responsibility ourselves for learning and not pushing that responsibility off, particularly on the group who we wanna learn about? Yes, it's okay to ask certain questions. But we need to be careful that I am not a member of the LGBT community.

And this is an example. So if I am in conversation with a member of that community, it is not my time to ask 20 questions of everything I wanted to know about a gay person and within that community and their identity. It is my responsibility however, to seek out information to, to care enough, to learn on my own, bring a certain basic level of understanding [00:17:00] into that dialogue and then be willing to be brought along further. So that's how we close knowledge, knowledge gaps. Now trust gaps I think can be addressed when I do do my homework and I take strides towards closing the knowledge gap. I think first we have to own that there are trust gaps between different groups for very valid reasons.

In this nation, we have a history, long term history with some groups, shorter term, maybe with others, but there is a history that has impacted negatively the trust that we may hold for different others. So first acknowledging that, acknowledging the validity of that, and then saying, okay, what can I do? What is my role in, in closing these gaps, I gave an example in that article, uh, Kelly, in which I talked about being at a women's conference when it was diverse conference, black women, white women, Asian women, Latinx, Hispanic women. And one of the things when I, when this came up about how do we have [00:18:00] authentic and transparent conversations?

My response was that we have to acknowledge that we have a trust gap, particularly because the panel at the front of the room involved black women and white. I talked about the need to own and acknowledge the elephant in the room that there are trust gaps that these trust gaps are legitimate through the lens, certainly of black women and certainly white women.

I know, certainly within my social circle, understand and validate these trust gaps and what may have led to, to these trust gaps. So acknowledging these gaps and then saying, okay, what can we do individually? And then what can we do collectively to close these gaps?

[00:18:43] Andrew Hibel: That was so well spoken. Thank you, Shai. The best part about this conversation is I, I think people can learn from that.

[00:18:51] Kelly Cherwin: this kind of ties back to the analogy you're using about the party situation.

I was recently having a conversation with someone else on a different campus. And he said he was worried that [00:19:00] some institutions may get just caught up in these words and not actually being authentic in their efforts. So when you're talking about inviting a diverse population to a party, it almost seemed like it was not authentic, like in, in terms of just checking off box.

So, what are the effects of inauthentic effort on the institution if they are doing it, just to do it for public relation reasons?

Shai Butler: Well, I would say that if I were a leader at that institution, or if I were advising a leader at that institution, I would say your community sees through your effort and they know if you are meaningful and if you're purposeful and if you're authentic and they also know when you're not.

When you're inauthentic you run the risk of stagnation and status quo that further perpetuate mist. Between diverse groups within the community between the community and its leadership. So if you have an opportunity as a [00:20:00] division leader, department leader, institutional leader, to really make or to, to create an initiative or a comprehensive approach to really advancing DEEI.

I would strongly encourage that you take an authentic stance towards the work because people will know when you're not being truthful and when you're not being purposeful, when you're not being meaningful, when you are checking off a box, But on the reverse side of that, if you are purposeful and if you are meaningful, there is a real effect on the institution and its community and its culture that's positive that can be made.

But I think part of, of the conversation and understanding has to be an acknowledgement that there will be short term pain for a longer term gain because this work is messy and it's not easy, but you still, if you're committed to the end result, if you're committed to change, if you're committed to a better institution and a better [00:21:00] society, then the short term pain is something you are willing to risk for the longer term gain.

And, and if you wanna look at, in a very practical and applied example, what inauthenticity looks like it's really evident by, by sound bites with no plan. Um, I'll give you an example when, when that's not higher ed, but this happens in higher ed too. When we hear defund the police, it's a sound bite, some cities in town, say it with a full plan in place of redress reconciliation and restitution.

While sometimes we see some individuals, they could be activists, they could be politicians who say it to advance their own personal agenda. It could be career mobility, or it could be to create chaos. And we all know that sometimes in the creation of chaos, it provides an opportunity for an opportunist who would benefit from that. So in authenticity is evident by soundbites with no plan. Whereas on the reverse side, [00:22:00] authenticity takes courage. It's steadfastness it's truthful transparency. It's it's leadership and its communication. And an acknowledgement that the process may be painful, but the institution will stay focused on the outcomes.

And very seriously, let it be known that those on board should roll up their sleeves and do the work while those who may not be on board. And we, an honest assessment is knowing that there will be some who are, and some who are not, but being able to say that those who are not on board should add a minimum agree, not to be barriers to success.

Kelly Cherwin: Very well said.

[00:22:36] Andrew Hibel: I think when you look at the authenticity of the individual, who's furthering, whether it's a personal belief or a plan, you may be seeing a lot more folks authentically talking about what their position is or what a plan is. And when you're a candidate or a person working at a college or university, and you see something that resonates with you as being authentic it makes a difference. It creates [00:23:00] some hope. And Martin Luther King Jr. famously said that the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice. What gives you hope that Dr. King is right in regards to this movement?

[00:23:11] Shai Butler: Dr. King was that as revered in his time as he is now. And so when I think about his speeches and I listen, I try to place myself back in that time.

And I listen with an ear of understanding that realizes how much courage it's taken for this man, this great man who has risen to the heights of, of awards and Nobel prize. Who's just was a person who was revered and applauded, but then the wind shifted and he had to take unpopular stance that really made him come down and esteem in the eyes of those in power, [00:24:00] in our country, in our nation, as well as his followers, those who embraced the notion of nonviolence later found him to be a voice or thought of him as a voice that was outta step with the times as violence began to infiltrate the movement.

Because violence begins to surge in society, right? And so it took a lot of courage. He, the winds may have shifted, but Dr. King's message never changed. He never stopped believing that people at their core would be the catalyst to make change. And that we were good. Could be good, desire to be good. You know, I like to think of him as a pragmatic optimist because he would tell words of.

And he could paint a picture of what was really happening in our country, but yet never really leave you feeling like there was no hope. And so his quote about the [00:25:00] arc of the moral universe, it is indeed long. It is indeed. For all of us, there is a ways to go. I I've said throughout this interview, that diversity is on a continuum.

Well, the moral universe is also on a continuum, but it's a continuum that brings us forward. And we have progressed. We have made progress from the time of Dr. King. So now we have made progress and that gives me hope that we will continue to make progress. And I feel that as long as there, there are forums and places and institutions like HigherEdJobs and others who are willing to have these difficult and sometimes messy conversations.

How could I not have optimism? How could I not think like Dr. King, how can I not be a pragmatic idealist to think that as long as people show up ready to have the conversation, but not only just to talk, but to actually listen, then, then [00:26:00] we will, we will get there. I guess that's, that's just what I really believe in my core.

So thank you for the opportunity and the discussion today. Both of you.

[00:26:12] Andrew Hibel: Thank you. I, I hope we all can be as brave as Dr. King was in the place that he spoke and also have the knowledge and understanding that while we may want to see change tomorrow for all the things that are wrong, understanding that real deep change, yime is a key ingredient and change is incremental and it may not be our lifetimes where the solution has solved itself and found its way it could be our children's or it may be our grandchildren's, but we all have a duty to have that bravery and have these conversations and move justice forward.

Today, we got to ask a lot of questions of you, but I know today that we learned a lot that moves our understanding forward and our [00:27:00] ability to find bravery, to have the next conversation to a place where hopefully we can make a difference. And we thank you for taking the time here to share that with us and share it with the HigherEdJobs community. We really appreciate you being here. Thank you.

Kelly Cherwin: Thank you, Shai.

[00:27:14] Shai Butler: Thank you both.