E25
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[00:00:00] Andrew Hibel: Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

[00:00:07] Kelly Cherwin: And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy. Today we have Daniel B. Griffith with us, and our topic is effective practices for managing conflict in the workplace.

So, we are gonna be discussing how to avoid conflict reaching the grievance stage, best practices and mediation in the workplace, and managing workplace conflict. Dan Griffith is an associate faculty member at Indiana University, O'Neill School of Public and Environmental Affairs, where he teaches graduate and undergraduate courses in negotiations and alternative dispute resolution.

He also teaches a mediation practice course at IU Robert McKinney School of Law. He is the principal author of the Conflict Survival Kit, Tools for Resolving Conflict at Work, and the co-author of Supervisors Survival Kit. He's the Director of Conflict Resolution and Dialogue Programs at IUPUI.

Additionally, Dan has been one of our regular contributors to hire our jobs [00:01:00] for the last decade. Dan, thanks so much for joining us today.

[00:01:03] Daniel Griffith: It's great to be here. Glad to be part of this conversation.

[00:01:06] Kelly Cherwin: Well, we are excited to have this conversation. So, I'm gonna start with referencing a statement that you made from an article that you wrote for us called Seeking Facilitators and Bridge Builders, the Heart of Any Successful Institution.

So you summed it up well saying conflict abounds, the political, cultural, and social landscape seems more fractured by irreconcilable differences in perspectives and values than any time in living memory. Our workplaces, classrooms, and academic environments are no less susceptible to these realities. So, Dan, I'll ask you this, can conflict be avoided? And is it ever a good thing?

[00:01:40] Daniel Griffith: Well, again, glad to be part of this conversation to talk with you, Kelly, and, and Andy, just, uh, thanks again. So, there's a lot of thoughts around conflict and whether to be avoided or not. I think the main thing is there's a tendency to avoid it. A tendency to not want to engage.

But that's not the healthiest approach. I think in that article, a big part of it was [00:02:00] simply the role that a lot of us can play in facilitating good conversation, whether it's conflict related or not, but it's certainly helping people bridge differences if we choose to take that role. But I think the, the main idea here is that we should embrace conflict because we can learn from it.

We should see the opportunity to work through to find good outcomes, because conflict often represents the reality that we just have different views, but we also have good things to contribute in whatever we're talking about. And by avoiding, sort of shuts that down or suggests that I don't want to confront, I don't feel confident, I don't feel safe.

So, we need to address those issues so we can, uh, address more effectively the conversations and the issues that concern us. Whatever level that is.

[00:02:46] Andrew Hibel: What would you say are the first signs of impending conflict in the workplace?

[00:02:49] Daniel Griffith: Well, and again, conflict. It takes all different forms. There's high level conflict, there's minor blip kind of things.

So, I think that's one of the issues when I think of [00:03:00] this is when we see impending conflict, that and alone is not a problem. Sometimes we see that because two coworkers are simply not communicating well, but they are trying to communicate. They are trying to work it out. They're new to one another or they're just, uh, having a sort of a bump about what's going on.

And if I were a manager or a leader and I saw that, I would often let that go because they are just working in a healthy fashion to address their conflict. But obviously things sort of escalate because, uh, personalities get involved, attacks, innuendos, sarcasm, uh, or avoidance, other kinds of behaviors.

And seeing it's not effective, then I think that's where, uh, you know, at least some suggestions of, can I help in the conversation? Can we talk that through? Can I give you some coaching on how to address your colleague, whatever that might be. I think a lot of issues though is we let things linger when early on we could address them in a more productive fashion.

So I think, you know, in terms of impending conflict, it's often upon us [00:04:00] and it's because we haven't seen the signs earlier of, uh, people not getting along effectively, you know, moving somewhere be that stage of healthy conflict, just working it out to a stage of they're not working out anymore, they're not communicating as effectively, it's affecting our team.

It's affecting productivity and these sort of things. Um, and we're not stepping in and letting that debt fester. And that's where, of course, it gets to a place where then we're calling human resources or one part of the other is looking for external support. Whatever it might be, if it gets, uh, obviously high level of, of escalation.

[00:04:36] Kelly Cherwin: So actually I do wanna build on that a little bit more. You referenced something like if a supervisor sees that, a leader sees that, you know, they might wanna step in and say, hey, can I help you with this? What if the employee or the person in conflict that says, no, I don't want your help. You know, they just aren't totally against trying to work through it.

Do you have any advice on how someone should protest that situation?

[00:04:56] Daniel Griffith: Well, there's different realms of that. So there is the, [00:05:00] how a supervisor would work with an employee on that. I would always discourage insisting on it, but there might be some good conversations about why they might want to consider a different approach, why what you're offering as a supervisor might be helpful, why that matters.

Like, you, may you not want my help, I would like you to understand the broader impacts here that, um, it does affect your interactions with the team and those sort of things. Obviously there is a, a different level. If someone like me was external and I have a background in human resources or in, uh, institutional equity and things like that, it's still a sort of a persuasion to say, you know, I can't quite force you to talk to this person.

I can't quite demand it, but I can maybe have some good conversation with you to think about impacts if you don't, the positive things might happen if you do, and the reality is that you have help along the way. So that's, I think part of it too is partly they don't want to because they feel they don't have the [00:06:00] skills, they don't have the experience, the person they're working with is particularly difficult.

So, there's an opportunity for a lot of coaching on those situations to address it in that fashion. So again, what can I do to help you go back to your colleague to work it out, just to advise you in different ways. Would it be helpful for me to help in mediation or other sort of responses? What's helpful to you?

But I think definitely is maybe what do they need to be equipped to develop their confidence, develop skills before they would go back and work with that if they are willing to.

[00:06:35] Kelly Cherwin: Looking for more conversations in higher ed, we invite you to join the HigherEdMilitary community as we discuss issues, best practices from campuses, policies, news and general trends affecting our institutions and the higher ed military affiliated community.

Inspired by the deep commitment to service that veterans and military connected faculty, staff, and leaders have towards the academic community, we at HigherEdJobs, established HigherEdMilitary as a resource for both original and curated news and information, as well as [00:07:00] job opportunities from colleges and universities actively recruiting military connected professionals.

Find resources, thought pieces, tools, and other information you need to improve your institution's ability to support this amazing community. Visit us at higheredmilitary.com on Facebook and LinkedIn.

[00:07:16] Andrew Hibel: In a previous article you've written for HigherEdJobs, Add Mediator to Your Skillset. You mentioned the world needs more mediators and you encourage people to expand their mindset regarding the role they can play to mediate conflict situations in the world around them.

How can higher ed professionals expand their mindset? Who is best suited for mediation in the workplace and who should be involved in mediation?

[00:07:40] Daniel Griffith: That article really speaks to a lot of what I'm doing these days in terms of the work I'm trying to promote, the work. I've been, uh, really, um, advocating a lot of ways in different forums and in my own workplace.

So, I think part of it is how we think about the role of mediators. One thing I want people to realize is that if you help others work through [00:08:00] conflict situations, and if your general intent is to support them both and not take a side, even if you haven't thought through formally what that means as a neutral whatever, then I suggest you're, you're a mediator.

Now, of course, depending on, on who you talk to, there is obviously specialized training for different areas of mediation. I have that as a lawyer, as a registered mediator in Indiana. But when I talk about that in the workplace, when I do training for mediators, in-house mediators, HR professionals, institution equity professionals, managers, whatever.

That's not this level of specialization to be a mediator in the legal community when you don't have that certification. But it is a level of training and development to say, and confidence building to say you can support others in the world around you, in the workplace that you serve to help them mediate.

So, in that context it might be too much to say. Just anybody could be a mediator. Cuz I think part of it's a mindset, part of it's good characteristics of being a neutral in that environment, being vulnerable, being authentic, being approachable, connecting with individuals. Maybe not everyone feels they can do that or would want to do that, or frankly there's some who just will not do that.

But broadly stated, I just think a lot of us in a lot of roles across the institution, can fulfill that kind of mediator, uh, role in some way to help others work through the conflict situation. So, I dunno if I've missed part of that question, but I think that's a big part of it, is simply how we think about what a mediator is and can do in the context of the workplace, the context of the daily life, of your workplace and who you work with, you, whoever you are, can more effectively help others address their conflict situations in, in different contexts. And I may have missed part of the question thinking about that, but broadly stated, that's how I feel and that's what that article is all about.

[00:09:57] Kelly Cherwin: I like that. I think people need to be a little bit more open-minded that they [00:10:00] might be a mediator and not even know it. I know we've talked about this before, but uh, before we got on air, Mike and I were saying it's not meditation, it's mediation Right.

[00:10:11] Daniel Griffith: Wait, you, you, you'd be surprised that I, uh, so I teach this as well and uh, I get papers and obviously they're not spell checking cuz they they do that often is, uh, they don't spell checking. That's, you know, meditate and things like that. Yeah. Uh, let me, in all seriousness though, let me do say, there are mediators who also, um, encourage meditation, and there's an aspect of the role of mediator being someone who connects with people who's centered. I should do more of it myself, so full disclosure, but not to minimize that connection. Yeah. In some way. So, yeah.

[00:10:45] Kelly Cherwin: Well it ties in together then, so. You and I had discussion a few months ago and you mentioned, I'm not sure exactly how you phrased it, but you said if a situation gets to the, of the grievance stage, it's almost too late.

You suggest in your [00:11:00] recent article on strategies for avoiding employee grievances and discipline, when do conflicts actually go to the grievance stage? I guess I wanna know a little bit more what the grievance stage actually is and how can parties avoid getting to this point because obviously it doesn't sound like it's a good point to be at.

[00:11:17] Daniel Griffith: Maybe a little bit at that last comment first in that, in terms of that article, in terms of sort of my mindset about it and really talking to many professionals, the idea of going to a grievance stage or again the, the article that I wrote was actually also the idea of as a supervisor going to a discipline phase.

When I say it's too late, because that's a formal process and it is almost like a circle the wagons kind of approach at that point, that the opportunity often for conversation in talking through it more effectively is lost because people become entrenched in their viewpoint, I'm so frustrated with this employee that now I'm going to HR.

I need to file the discipline. I'm so [00:12:00] frustrated with my supervisor. I'm so frustrated with a coworker. Talking does no good anymore. So I have no choice but to file a grievance. So that's the mindset. And once we're at that stage, those deeper conversations are, are lost. Now in, in the actual stage of it. I mean, the thing is, HR professionals I work with have a good approach as they think about this.

Someone would come to them in terms of stages, would be lower level grievance, where it's just the supervisor can respond and maybe that resolves it. The next stage might be HR and then a stage over that might be the leader of that department, whatever. Again, every every process can be different. By the way, some stages will have built in to step away from the formal process to do something like mediation.

Ultimately the highest stage would, is often internally at least, is often a formal arbitration. So again, there's all these steps you go through and you go through it because you're, you were unsuccessful or unsatisfied with the stage prior. But the more it escalates, again, the more the wagons circle kind of thing. [00:13:00]

But when I have worked with HR, for example, when I do mediation training, when I do the work in diversity areas, but when talking to many colleagues around this, the mindset really is someone has come to our office, if you're HR, and presenter to concerns, feel they want to file a grievance. and more and more it's about, well, let's see if there's some other opportunity here.

Let's see if there's some way we can talk this through. You have your right to file a grievance or certainly you have the authority as a supervisor to do your discipline, but let's see if there's some other way we can address this. So I've been at this many years now, 10, 15, 20 years ago, it seemed often it was sort of a knee jerk.

Uh, I have a grievance. I'd like to file a grievance. Well, here's your form, or I want to do this. Well, here's the process for doing that, and we handle it that way. I feel things have changed significantly over time where it simply, often employees or supervisors aren't always aware of some other opportunity to address it, and [00:14:00] when they become aware of it, they become relieved.

I really didn't want a discipline, but I didn't see out a choice. Now hearing from HR or from another process that we can mediate, we can talk it through, get coaching, education, whatever. Same with the employee. I didn't necessarily want to do this, but I feel a choice because we don't have good mechanism or talking about it now with some external support, such as human resources and an ombuds or someone like me who does a conflict resolution office, uh, sort of.

That's a relief. Those messages about opportunities to avoid it are important because some aren't aware that they have those options and can move to some more productive approach versus a formal approach where of filing, grievance or discipline.

[00:14:39] Andrew Hibel: Thanks, Dan. That's, that's a, a wonderfully insightful bit of information.

It kind of sparked a spontaneous question for me, which is, it would seem to me that over the past 10 to 15 years, the question of equity and conflict resolution seems to have really taken more of a front and center part to the [00:15:00] approach. Have these additional avenues for conflict resolution provided more avenues for more equitable solutions in your opinion?

[00:15:08] Daniel Griffith: Broadly, yes. I think for the most part that the former process is, about the formality of the institution needs to know and wants oversight and wants control. So let's just be honest, wants control over these issues. Again, that doesn't go away. Legal counsel has a concern of course as we move forward, but the institutions have also recognized the need for greater support for employees.

Uh, you know, we're a comfortable environment, belonging, all those sort of conversations. So I think many have come to the understanding that, alternate avenues of addressing conflict situations is gonna be important. One thing that, that I know since I work in a diversity area is there are plenty of individuals, employees, faculty, what have you, who will go to the diversity office or will go to, uh, other avenues.

They're doing it, they're seeking out support [00:16:00] and knowing that HR is available or, or actually in the faculty world, knowing that the provost office in terms of their academic unit that handles these issues, sometimes it's not traditionally HR. They know that it's there, but they also know, I know what's gonna happen if I do that, it's gonna be this formal process, it's gonna escalate, it's gonna not work out well for me.

I think that HR and other, uh, you know, formal avenues such as the provost office are fully aware, are becoming more and more aware. Employees have choices and will make their choices to get their needs addressed. And so we might as well work with that versus be critical of it. That this idea of control and oversight now it's important.

There's there, we wanna understand and be supportive, want, want people to know that from that perspective, yes, we, we are protecting institution, but in protecting institution, that means helping you as an employee to work through your situation. So what I'm seeing more and more of is simply those [00:17:00] offices embracing more these solutions and other offices, such as the diversity office, such as an Ombuds, such as like a conflict resolution sort of program that I do to find partners in this.

And where it doesn't have to be in the formal process because it's a liability issue or an escalating issue to a potential lawsuit, whatever. Then by all means, deescalating informal processes, understanding it happens, and that HR doesn't need to know all that necessarily. If it's just a matter of just resolving a conflict so that HR doesn't have to deal with it in the future, they're more than happy to embrace it.

And so, I've seen that as a change. Maybe a final comment in terms of the issue of the equity and diversity. I mean, I, I've definitely seen this in terms of underrepresented groups that I think we, there needs to be a change, uh, or, or further development in terms of how HR looks at themselves, how they look at their own diversity mindsets and equity mindsets develop, continue to develop in that area.

I [00:18:00] know certainly CUPA-HR, SHRM certainly embraces that more and more in terms of HR develop because there are plenty of, uh, underrepresented individual, under underrepresented groups who are running to these other offices for support because inherently just don't feel that trust in HR. It doesn't have to be that way, but I think there's some change in culture and understanding so that we can move to a more organic approach to this, that, that HR can embrace as much as anybody else.

[00:18:27] Kelly Cherwin: I have a question. I guess it's similar to more of a higher ed careers questions, but you said that you have been, you know, promoting and doing this work for a while. Where does your passion come from in dealing with this type of work?

[00:18:39] Daniel Griffith: Well, I, I suppose it starts with how I felt treated. Um, you know, some of the experiences I've gone through in terms of why, what, you know, that, uh, I felt treated in an uninequitable fashion.

Now as a white man, that's, I don't know what that says, but, uh, certainly I, I've had my own rough patches as an employee in different ways. That was prior to going [00:19:00] to law school, but going to law school further enforced the idea that it, it is equity and justice and those things that drove me and, and it led to work in an equal opportunity initially, you know, discrimination kind of issues.

But I, I think that's a lot of it is just seeing that there's a lot of struggle that employees have. We all, you know, workplaces are at times can be chaotic places and what's driving that whole idea of being a mediator or being a support, being a facilitator, or a bridge builder, is that if we feel we're in a place to help others in the moment where people work, why should we do that? And uh, I think that drives a lot of, it is simply my greatest passions are about yes, mediating, but it's also developing others to be these kind of, uh, facilitators, uh, bridge builders and what have you, and that at the place where it's happening versus more formal processes, you know, going to HR, is where the need is right then and there. And, [00:20:00] uh, if I can help, not only me seeing that, but help others be those radars, those attentive individuals, those supportive individuals, I, I just think that's, that can be world changing in small places but to, to the question. That's what a lot of my, what a lot of my drive is these days, so.

[00:20:15] Kelly Cherwin: Well, thank you for the work that you do. There's like a quota there. Small things can make a big difference.

[00:20:20] Andrew Hibel: On a final note, how do you think our audience should think about conflicts in their own lives, whether professional or personal?

[00:20:29] Daniel Griffith: I think it's to embrace that there is conflict in that it means opportunity for learning and growth.

And I, I think a big part of the message about conflict, many of us, and I'll start with myself, want to avoid conflict, feel negative about it, but I think the reason is, is not so much that we have, but it's how it's managed. It's the mindsets around it. In fact, society, how they look at it as a very adversarial process.

But if we really get down to these issues around the conflict we're having with colleagues and coworkers and things [00:21:00] like that, there's learning opportunity, there's growth opportunities, there's synergy, there's coming to the other side of something better, connecting better with colleagues and what have you.

That doesn't say all conflicts are that way, some are very negative and we can obviously, put against some very difficult situations, difficult individuals who won't change. But nonetheless, if we see that it can be empowering, if we approach it appropriately, we can grow from it, learn from it. Even though it's most difficult situations, we're better for it.

So, the last thing I would want people to do is to avoid it. Walk away from it. Or to blow up because of it, you know, just get angry about it versus approaching it. Have the first, the mindset that I can work through this, I can develop, I can get skills and see the opportunity here versus rejecting it. So those are some of the broad things that I would want people to see in terms of there's opportunity. Take it and learn from it.

[00:21:56] Andrew Hibel: Thanks Dan. Thanks for spending time with us today. And I'd [00:22:00] remind folks out there who are listening, if you have any questions for Dan, please feel free to email us at podcast@HigherEdJobs.com or tweet us at HigherEdJobs. Or if you have any question for us and would like to see us cover a topic, please feel free to contact us.

Thanks Dan, for being with us today. We really enjoyed our time.

[00:22:19] Daniel Griffith: Likewise. Thanks so much.