Andy Hibel 0:02
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of Higher Ed Jobs.

Kelly Cherwin 0:09
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy. Today we're happy to have Chris Lee back for our Ask the Experts series. Thanks, Chris, for joining us today.

Chris Lee 0:17
My pleasure.

Kelly Cherwin 0:19
So our question today is how long should I stay in a leadership position before moving to another role within the same university? I have an opportunity to make a lateral move to another department, but I am unsure whether to apply. Chris, what are your thoughts on this?

Chris Lee 0:34
Yes, well, this is what all of our conversations are about, about career growth and change. Finding the right position. So this is a good one. There's two ways I like to think about it. It has to be really kind of an internal view of how you see your career as well as how others, you know, kind of see your career for yourself. It's usually things like the economics, right? Is this going to meet my financial obligations and expectations? Also, how you feel about a particular opportunity. And then the third factor is related to how is it going to help your career? Is it going to help you learn and grow and things like that? So changing a job is not. Yes. One factor is usually a lot of different stuff. We'll take the easy one first. If you get a, you know, new child or you get new obligations or you're like me trying to pay for college tuition here, since you know, that is the case for a lot of people. And you might have to earn more money then, you know, if it's a greater opportunity, has more remuneration, it makes sense. That's an easy one. But barring that, you have to think about does this position help me learn something new, helped build my skills, and does it help my career trajectory over time? Every now and then, taking a lateral move actually is a good idea because it helps flesh things out. Sometimes it's changing a job to learn something specific that's important for your particular career environment and where you kind of want to go and sometimes just your profession. So I got some colleagues at an accounting firm and there is kind of like an up or out environment, meaning that either you grow or you can sort of stagnant and you're not promotable. So in those environments you have to take opportunities because it's a kind of a career culture, but whatever the case may be. So those are about learning and growing and being able to contribute. So that's kind of that other big factor about learning. And then the final one is how do you feel about it? Is it a good environment for you where you are? You have a great supervisor, you may have great colleagues, you may really enjoy what you're doing, and you don't want to necessarily change because change in and of itself creates lots of dynamics. So even if you're changing on campus, your commute might change. If you had a big university, you got to go to the other side of the university. The parking might be different, the buildings might be different. The work hours today is really different, where some departments can telework, some can, you know, the hours and the expectations. There's a whole lot of factors that's kind of disrupt your life. But those three buckets kind of for me, define how you should think about it from an internal perspective, meaning your internal view about taking on a new opportunity.

Kelly Cherwin 3:24
I like how you explain all those factors, and I have kind of a piggyback question on this original question. When when they asked, you know, how long she stayed in a leadership position. Fast forwarding, I don't know, say five, ten years down the road and this person has their resumé is there. I don't think there's a hard, fast rule of like, do you have to stay in a position for a year before you can apply for another one? Like, I think people are maybe hesitant to like they want to be this job hopper. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Chris Lee 3:51
Yes. Yes. So the external view keeps that in mind. How people view your career question is how long you stay in a position. I've never seen anything that's a standard. But I think overall, 3 to 5 years is kind of what people sort of expect, at least people with gray hair. Right. Because I've seen, you know, the younger generations think two years is enough to have established over three years. I'll never forget a gentleman who worked for me. You know, he found another opportunity and he knew I was going to come to him and talk to him about it. Right. So I heard, you know, from his direct supervisor, you know, as a supervisor, supervisor, that I may come to his office. He goes, oh, yes, I think he graduated from the master's program where I teach also, you know, kind of part time. So, you know, I've known him for a while. I come into his office and he goes, Mark, Chris, man. I gave you two good years. Like, he was so proud. He was like, Hey, you know, you know, you know, know you. While you're here to talk to me about this and I'm thinking about two years, I just trained you like I haven't really gotten the aura y from all this investment in time. And you, you're just getting kind of fully competent in the role. But the younger generations today, they see it differently. Now, the risk with that is they also miss opportunities because right here, people, you know, levelheaded people might say, on the other hand, they might say, hey, this person has moved multiple times. And I know they're only going to be here for two years, so I won't even interview them because I don't think they will stick and stay. So I think that's the downside of moving too much right now. There's some incentives to do so because the research shows the more you move, the greater likelihood you'll get higher pay because you wouldn't necessarily move for less pay. So the pattern favors it. However, I think you miss as many opportunities as you gain by being a job hopper. I would recommend three at minimum. And then even if you do change a less than that, two together is more damaging. If it were three years here, six years here, or five years here, and then three years again. Right. That is not necessarily seen as job hopping. The point is that if there's a pattern, hiring managers will react. So I think that's the key for anyone who's thinking about it.

Andy Hibel 6:19
I would probably offer one caveat off of that, and I definitely would have been on job Hopper in your estimation? I would offer I think it might vary a little bit from department to department. Some of the more popular categories of departments and higher ed jobs, I can tell you there's lots of jobs, lots of opportunity, a lot of movement. I'm thinking of student affairs and advancement positions that people do move around. Yeah. So I think that the three years is not a bad rule of thumb. I would then also see what's acceptable where you are. There are some places where you're right, it might be 3 to 5 years before you really hit your stride in a more complex position, and there's not a lot of movement that you probably should stay. I think with this question, I think one of the questions that if you wrote it, I'd really like you to be asking yourself is why are you doing it? I love what you went through. Chris. This greater pay, it's more responsibilities. I am always fearful in lateral moves that you're trying to escape something, to move to something. Yeah. I think if you're not moving to something, a lateral move within the same institution always feels like a really, really risky move because the grass is always greener on the other side and you can't do that again. You make that move once you're now stuck in it. And the part I'm always worried about is your career story. When people ask you about why you made the choices you made, how you're going to explain it doesn't make sense. Does your story fit the reality of your resume? And if you do some of these lateral moves and they don't quite work out, they're really difficult to explain to employers and also, I think raises red flags on the job, if you will. The job hopper title. Yeah. That said, if you're a Gen Xer or above generation wise, you didn't feel a lot of loyalty from from institutions like some of your parents and grandparents felt. But you felt some I would say it might differ if you're a Gen Z or a millennial right now and you're looking in institutions and you're not necessarily feeling the loyalty. You think that the Xers and above felt. I would say in those instances you have to make the right career choice for you, but do so for the right reasons. Is it a great opportunity? Yeah, because I think those things always ring true when you start telling your career story. I went to this position because I was excited about doing this. I went to this position because I was being paid significantly more. I went to this position because I wanted to move back and be closer to my family because my parents were aging. Those parts of those stories, I think, speak well to you as a candidate and a person, and I think they're going to reinforce any future employer's evaluation of you and the type of person that they're hiring. When those things don't necessarily fit, I think they can create a red flag based on your career story.

Chris Lee 9:15
Yeah, I like that phraseology, career story. But let me double down on your caveat about, you know, moving moving that. I think you're right. If certain professions like, you know, accounting, student affairs, others, there's rapid change early career. Right. And then it kind of mellows out later because there are opportunities there and there's a natural, predictable career ladder. Right. And so that is certainly the case. And if it's not in those professions, one should, you know, and you're you're promotable, right? You've moved a lot because people see talent and, you know, you get some great skills and you're moving up. Then once you cover that in their cover letter. Right. Because otherwise their perception might be, you know, the job hopping thing. But if you're a talent, talent rises to the top. So, you know, if you two years, two years, two years and you're just knocking it out of the park, great. But say that I was recruited. I was promoted, excelled, etc., you know, give reasons for that so that others come to the right conclusion that make an assumption about your background.

Andy Hibel 10:18
That's well put.

Kelly Cherwin 10:20
Yeah.

Chris Lee 10:20
And then one more. One more point. I'm sorry, Kelly.

Kelly Cherwin 10:23
Oh, I wouldn't say I'm not going to triple down and try to go back on either one. I like both what you said there. So yeah.

Chris Lee 10:32
So the you know, the the phrasing of the question left something open for interpretation because I said leadership position. And sometimes that means supervisors. Sometimes it means managers, sometimes it means executive. So you just want to make the note that if it's an executive position, you know, usually if you're inside of an organization and you're moving to an executive position, it's usually because others have recognized one's talent. So it's not like you're applying for a job across campus into an executive position. Usually someone sponsoring you or endorsing you, because those are highly challenging and volatile, heady, time consuming, commitment oriented positions. And not everyone succeeds. So usually you want a proven person there. And, you know, leaders tend to be kind of conservative on who they select. And so really a talent market. So usually in those environments, someone has to kind of sponsor you and say, you know, you know, Kelly's does great or Mike does great or whatever the case may be. And when you apply, it's received warmly. But if you're just an average Joe or average Jane and you apply for an executive position and no one knows of your track record, chances are a lot lower. So that's just kind of a caveat to the question because I said, you know, opportunity for another department is a leadership position. So I wasn't sure that my management management being a lot different than executive.

Kelly Cherwin 11:58
Thank you for.

Andy Hibel 11:59
That. Thanks, Chris. That was excellent advice and thank you for listening. If you have a question for Chris or one of our other experts, please email us at podcast at Higher ed Jobs dot com or direct message us on acts at higher ed careers. We look forward to talking soon.