Andy Hibel 0:02
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly Cherwin 0:09
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, The director of editorial strategy. Today, we're happy to have Chris Lee back for our Ask the Expert series. Thanks, Chris, for joining us today.

Christopher Lee 0:17
My pleasure.

Kelly Cherwin 0:18
Our question today is I'm considering doctoral programs to advance my career. What are you seeing in the current job market? Are there more roles requiring Eddie D's or PhDs in higher ed right now? Chris, what are your thoughts on this one?

Christopher Lee 0:30
This one is a multi-layered sort of question to say, What does the market show is kind of to general to have a clear and coherent answer because it really varies by field or discipline or region type institution. But underneath the question, I think is a key one that I've heard often over my career, which is people say, Hey, should I spend the time and effort to go pursue a doctorate and how will it help me advance my career? So in thinking about that, is is really kind of a hard question to answer because of the many, many factors. First, I'm going to start with the fact that not everyone who starts a doctorate finishes is not predictable, like a bachelor's degree or a masters degree, where you just complete the coursework and you're done. When you finish. You got to do this thing called a dissertation, right? You know, and not everyone finishes those. It's a big pass fail kind of activity. And the research shows as many as 70% in certain fields don't finish because they can vary in length from like 4 to 8 or ten years. So it's a really big commitment. So first question is, do you really want to do that? Right? So the why matters if you're not really committed, you probably won't finish. And, you know, there's a sidebar there, too, I think to some degree, because of just the prestige of it. Some people try to make it harder than it should be. Right. It's kind of like boot camp for me or, you know, pledge in a fraternity. Right. The gatekeepers, you know, want to keep the bar really, really high. So so you have to think about, do I really want to do that is costly, right? Because as you get 4 to 6 years, you know, it can be, you know, pretty expensive. So you have to really want to do it. And then the other factor is, will the doctor it open the doors that you want it to open? Not every position, quote, requires a doctorate. They may, you know, prefer a doctorate. So will it open the doors? You think it will open? So then it's back to Why are you doing it? Are you doing it for, you know, the cachet of being called a doctor? Are you doing it because other people are doing it? Is it really required in your field will give you a leg up to get that job. And that job produces a certain amount of economic return on your investment because it's expensive. So you have to think through all of these factors in the way I described it is kind of got to interrogate yourself to say, Hey, why am I doing this? Because along the way in your third year and you go like, I'm only halfway through and these hours are long and, you know, this is expensive is really, really tempting to not go for it because a lot of people are doing this part time, you know, as the question implies, as a person probably working and they're doing it part time. So why are you doing it? Really should be analyzed.

Andy Hibel 3:29
I was going to say, I think you really, Chris, if we stopped recording here, I think you can stop listening if you want to. Let's just be honest. But if you continue to listen, I think one of the interesting parts is cost, because I think that that really varies. If you are working full time at a college or university, having tuition covered are a large part of tuition covered. I do think it changes the calculus a little bit. If the institution is willing to pick up the entire bill or a very good part of the bill and you have the time and you have the curiosity, maybe it's not a bad thing to explore. I'm speaking as somebody who is I'm a proud dropout in a doctoral program,

so I can honestly tell you I thought it was well worth my time. Yeah, I had a tuition waiver. I spent a year doing the coursework. I very much enjoyed it. I learned a lot. I felt it was extremely useful to me in my academic journey, but I didn't finish it. So if I was no worse off for it.

Christopher Lee 4:35
Absolutely. But, you know, if you just love the stuff, go do it. Absolutely. I mean, that's what it's about. It's about the academy and being curious and stuff like that. I'm totally with you on that. But, you know, the the question asking person here was implying they wanted for career advancement. Right. You know, and so then, you know, that's a different calculus than I really like learning and, you know, like a history buff. I think, you know, you might be a history buff, you know. Andrew in like your little history and you got an opportunity of studying in a, a world class historian, man, that's a cool opportunity. You know, it's free and it's is right down the down the hall, man, that I would love to, you know, have the time and leisure to do that. But if you're trying to advance your career, you know, you've got to make a different calculus.

Kelly Cherwin 5:15
Looking for more conversations in higher ed, we invite you to join the higher ed military community as we discuss issues, best practices, news in general, trends affecting our institutions, and the higher ed military affiliated community inspired by the deep commitment to service that veterans and military connected faculty, staff and leaders have towards the academic community. We at higher ed jobs established higher ed military as a resource for both original and curated news and information, as well as job opportunities from colleges and universities actively recruiting military connected professionals. Visit us at HigherEdMilitary. com on Facebook and LinkedIn. I love what you're all saying. I know, Chris, you emphasized you're doing the research and why are you talking about the cost, the financial cost? But also we have to consider the costs, you know, time away from your family costs of maybe if you are working the is it interfering with how you're performing in your jobs? There's so many other costs that factor into this.

Andy Hibel 6:06
You and the. Well, the easy part for me was I was an extremely young person, in my twenties, with time on my hands. So, yeah, it's a very, very that would have been very, very different if I had a family at that point. So absolutely. Kelly Like, it's easy and glib for me to say that, but at that stage in life, if it's there, there's a lot of different circumstances. I agree on that. On the career side of this, like if you're looking to do this to advance your career, there's a lot of monetary and non-monetary costs for potential gain. And yeah, I would say there's some positions where it's absolutely necessary. But I don't think not having a Ph.D. is going to limit your career long term in academia.

Christopher Lee 6:53
Yeah, except in some environments where people have a pretty big prestige overlay to, you know, how they see things. And and so that matters, right? The institution matters and the tape doctorate matters. So, you know, the gatekeepers or people who decide on who to let into, you know, their private club or their, you know, or however certain positions they want to know what type. Doctorate sometimes, you know, whether it's a practical doctorate, like an E.D. or or D.v.m. or is it a Ph.D.? Most people don't really understand and appreciate the difference. But the gatekeepers tend to write, They tend to know and they have value judgments over certain kinds of programs and certain kinds of degrees and certain kinds of institutions. So just have to say that because those factors come into play for faculty is easy. A gentleman said to my colleagues and I when I was a doctoral student, you would never teach at a school more prestigious than than when you graduated from. And that is very close to being accurate. You can look at the details in the background. I think the exceptions are when people just are way above their peers and their accomplishments and things like that. So that that's a factor. And if you if you're in a regional area and X, Y, Z universe, it has a different reputation than, you know, ABC University. People know that and that can affect your career potential, which takes us back to the beginning. Why are you doing that? And do you know that this particular degree from this particular institution is going to open the doors that you wanted to open? Is it the type degree type program? You know, discipline, all of those. And so it's a really complex question. It's not a yes and no question.

Kelly Cherwin 8:41
I think it's a great conversation. It's a complex question. And we really touched on a lot of points. I mean, bottom line, you have to know why.

Andy Hibel 8:47
You have to know why.

Kelly Cherwin 8:49
thank you for that.

Andy Hibel 8:50
Thank you, Chris, and thank you for listening. If you have a question for Chris or one of our other experts, please email us at podcast@higheredjobs. com or direct message us on X @higheredcareers. We look forward to talking soon.