Andy Hibel 0:03
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly Cherwin 0:09
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, The director of editorial strategy.

Kelly 0:12
Today. We're here with expert Matt Trainum, who is the vice president, Networks and Strategic Partnerships at the Council of Independent Colleges. Matt, we are so happy to have you back today.

Matt Trainum 0:23
It is always a treat to be here. Excited to be here. Wonderful to see both of you.

Kelly Cherwin 0:29
Well, let's get into our question. So the question for today is what are the pros and cons of going from alumni to employee at the same institution? Matt, this is a fun question. What are your thoughts on this?

Matt Trainum 0:40
You know, let's just start with I think we can all agree that in a long term idea, like if you come back ten or 15 or 20 years later, this is an amazing benefit. Right. It's a feather in your cap. It's fantastic. Which all agree you show back up at an institution ten, 15, 20 years later. Really? For most plays out pretty well.

Kelly Cherwin 1:01
Yes, I agree

Andy Hibel 1:02
I don't know if I'd agree.

Matt Trainum 1:03
Go. Go,

Andy Hibel 1:04
go, Go on. Dr. Trainum.

Matt Trainum 1:07
Well, no, I. I wasn't going to go too much further on that. Certainly, you come in and you've got your memory of how places are that you have to move past. But in terms of the question of is it a benefit of benefit in the process of coming into an institution, I think it's a pro for most folks coming in.

Andy Hibel 1:25
I think I'd agree with the premise that most folks see it as a pro. I think I think most folks see it as a feather in their cap as you said, I think we're focusing on the pros. I mean, question also asked about the cons, and I think that some of those challenges are and maybe giving full disclosure, I've done this. Well, first of all, I covered a lot of ground. I was in college for nine years before I actually started working. I had extended time at a number of different institutions. And my first full, real professional position, which was an internship that morphed a little bit over a year, was at undergraduate alma mater, which I think is fantastic. I'm now experiencing a different role with my own alma mater is my oldest goes to the school that I went to and now I get to be a parent of somebody at that institution, which I'll be honest with you, That to me, I think is probably the best part of it. But I think the challenges are that there's a little bit of the past is the past, and there's such a special place for most people, particularly with their undergraduate alma mater, that sometimes it's best to keep those memories as just those. You get to know a city differently than you did in those undergraduate years. And kind of, at least for me, at times, I wish and I say this with all your love. I'm graduate proud graduate of the University of Illinois. Like my favorite restaurants from when I was an undergrad at this point have been pushed so far off campus to kind of like a boneyard of like Generation X restaurants that who's cut student how today would eat. But you come in for a homecoming and they're packed to the gills and they're three miles from campus now. And seeing the glory of the 1980s University of Illinois that I knew being relegated to distant champagne has been a little bit of a painful experience for me. So I say with like, you can't go back and relive that experience. And there's a certain part of it that's great. But there's also a certain part where I kind of want to keep my memories of that. And remember the champagne of 1988 and the flying L.

Kelly Cherwin 3:45
I know I can appreciate that because change is hard and that's obviously and it's inevitable. It's change is going to happen. So I definitely can see that. I mean, the past is the past. I graduated from University of Minnesota and I go up there frequently now, but I can't believe how much the campus has changed. So you're right. The guy I, I want to remember how it was when I went there. I guess I can't speak to what it would be like to be working there now, but I see it in a different light right now. So. Matt, sorry to interrupt you.

Matt Trainum 4:15
No, I. I appreciate this a whole lot. When I work with boards, one of the things I talk with boards of trustees about is I want a board that remembers the transformational experience they had as students for those who are students, and that seeks to create that transformation, not preserve that exact experience. And so when you're when you're talking in that area, Andy, I just appreciate it so much. You know, entered this question a little sloppily, didn't I? Right. I tried to jump forward in time and say, in the future, I think it's really it's really a fun benefit. I think it is for the hiring standpoint. But I think from the individual standpoint coming in, those cons and the challenges of that are really real. Back to the specific question, when I read it at face value, I think this is somebody saying, should I go to work at the place I'm graduating from right now? Right. And I've just graduated And should I should I go to work there? And I'll listen to that direction for a minute. And I'll say that the pros in that area are kind of obvious. Right? There's a faster acclimation. You know, the history, you know, the traditions, you know, where the buildings are. You know, I get around campus, you know how to get on the wifi network. Right. And speaking of networks, you've probably got a new network there. So, you know, people you've got students that have graduated and have gone to work there. You've got professors and administrators that you get to work with. So you have all of that. I think if you were a top student at the institution, it creates a success story within the institution. And so a lot of other employees will be happy and will be celebrating that you are there. They will love that you have stayed. And speaking of love, I think there's a bit of a heart connection. Andy, This goes to where you are. going to work at somewhere that was formative to you already. That's probably one of the big reasons you're going to work there and that that is a pro. But all of those pros, of course, are going to have their negatives, which we'll talk about in a minute. But I just wanted to kind of pull us into this direction of should I go to work somewhere that I've just graduated from and what's going to be the benefits of that? What do you all think?

Andy Hibel 6:23
I think actually, I have a pretty simple answer. I think it's just a personal preference. I think there's some people who absolutely this is a great thing and it absolutely is something that they can do. It kind of related to some people, like, and prefer to live far away from where they work. Other people absolutely need a shorter commute. Everybody kind of has their own preference on this one. There's probably more of my take. I do agree your initial take is right. Most people probably prefer it, but I think it's definitely something that there's a lot of pros. Our youngest goes to an institution where the provost went there and in the first couple of weeks of her experience there, she met her husband and now she's provost there. It's a small school. I really get that there. I think that school kind of being that that that town, I could see that. would guess that while it's changed, it's also kind it remained kind of what it was back then. There hasn't been a big campus expansion like you might see at a larger research. One institution. So I get it. I completely get it. I think for me, it's more of a I speak only on behalf of myself and not others. I think this is something that appeals to you. Absolutely. Go for it. But just remember your formative memories way back when, when you were there are going to not necessarily be as locked in stone as they would have been if you would have gotten some distance from it. If you're I would call myself somewhat If you're somewhat nostalgic person, think about it and see what it means to you. In many instances, if there's a great opportunity professionally and it meets with you, I would not avoid working at the institution that you graduated from, but make sure you know what you're getting yourself into.

Kelly Cherwin 8:11
Ditto to everything that Andy said. really that doesn't say it's truly a personal preference. Some people like the idea of something that is comfortable and sometimes people maybe want a change. So I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here. I really think it depends on what someone needs for themselves professionally, personally. Matt, what are your thoughts on this?

Matt Trainum 8:31
Well, like you all are saying, you're going behind the curtain and it's messier behind the curtain and that can change your memories of the place beyond the behind the curtain part. I do think there's a bit of an identity issue where your identity for many people there that they are going to see you. Your identity has been as a student. And so there's an identity shift that takes place that might not take place as readily in your mind as it takes place in everyone else's mind. think there's a little factor here for me, for folks who are going straight into position at an institution, there's a little worry I have around bias as a student. Some of our more active student leaders, you get to have a role in a voice as a student, and then when you get into administration, you need to do your job. And sometimes the bias of the student viewpoint can make that harder because you understand the challenges of the student viewpoint. That's a pro, of course, but when you have that, when you're carrying that with you, it can be harder to really function as a good administrator. You know, let me give you a comparison. When faculty come over into administration and sometimes while I'll be talking with a faculty member who has now become vice president of something. one of the transitional difficulties I've seen is that has a faculty member, your job can be a rabble rouse. That can be really your job. You can rabble rousing. You can point alt value clarification issues and ethical dilemmas, and you can do that broadly and loudly because that's a role that you have as a faculty member. Once you're vice president, your role is actually to resolve those things, not to bring them up. And so similarly, as a student, there are things that you get to bring up in rabble rousing around and has a staff member you have to actually resolve. So it's figuring that out too.

Kelly Cherwin 10:17
I don't think I've ever used the word rablerouse so good word.

Andy Hibel 10:20
How do you spell that. up That would be a great Scrabble word.

Matt Trainum 10:24
Rabblerouse

Mike Walker 10:25
Is that one word or 2?

Matt Trainum 10:27
I'm going to go with one. I said. I held up two fingers, but my brain said one, Maybe I'm in conflict. I think it's I think it's one word. So if you one up again.

Andy Hibel 10:37
Oh, go ahead, Matt, please.

Matt Trainum 10:38
I'm going to add something sort of has an aside. Last note. So we started this a little bit with kind of a long term lens. I'll just throw out a couple other long term thoughts. There is certainly, I believe, pretty good research that will show that your salary progression will be better if you change locations Staying in house puts you in a more regular tiered places. You can often jump salary by moving to different places. So I think in a long term lens that might be worth thinking about. And the other thing I would mention is that Andy, this is where you are. When you're alumni, location becomes your place of work. You're just circles get smaller and tighter. And so your faith group, your sports group, your alumni group, your work group, your mentor group, they might all be living in the same place. And just presents a potential vulnerability. It's an amazing cluster and an amazing benefit in some ways. But also if you do move now, you've kind of concentrated everybody in one location. If the institution does close, everything is concentrated in one location. If there is a falling out that happens, all of that is concentrated in one location. So if folks are staying where they are, and I know many people who have stayed at the same place for 40 years and been an amazing assets, I would just encourage also connecting outside of the institution through professional associations, through other areas so that you have a network that extends beyond the campus.

Andy Hibel 11:57
I think that's solid, solid advice. There's not often, I beg you all who are to send us an email or send us a direct message on Twitter, but send us a direct message. Have you done this? How has it worked out? I'd love to hear folks stories on the pros and cons they've seen and if you've experienced it. So please email us at podcast@higheredjobs.com or send us a direct message on X @higheredcareers and let us know you think on the subject. Or if you have questions for experts like Matt, please send those to us as well. That's where we get these questions from there, from folks like you. So please keep sending them. Thanks for being here today, Matt. Really enjoyed the conversation

Kelly Cherwin 12:43
Thank you Matt

Matt Trainum 12:44
Y'all are always stellar folks to be around. Thanks for a good discussion.

Andy Hibel 12:47
Thank you for listening. And we look forward to talking real soon.