Andy Hibel 0:03
Welcome to the Higher Jobs podcast. Ask the Expert edition. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of Higher Ed Jobs.

Kelly Cherwin 0:10
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of Editorial Strategy. Today, we'd like to welcome back Kathleen Hermacinski, associate vice president of Human Resources and Title nine coordinator at Illinois Wesleyan University. Kathleen has 14 years experience in higher education, including five years specializing in human resources. She was also recently elected member at large for the CUPA H.R. Illinois chapter. Welcome back, Kathleen. Thanks for joining us today.

Kathleen Hermacinski 0:34
Thank you.

Kelly Cherwin 0:35
So let's dive into our question from one of our listeners. What advice would you give to a job seeker and how to spot red flags from an employer or recruiter in an interview? Kathleen, what are your thoughts on this? I know red flags is kind of a lot, but do I have any thoughts?

Kathleen Hermacinski 0:49
Well, first there's red flags, yellow flags and green flags. So the questions about red flags, if the recruiter or search committee hiring manager or anybody you're referencing talks negatively about the institution or about the previous person in the position you're interviewing for. That's a red flag. They might have some grudges or some preconceived notions or biases towards the position, and therefore you are they comparing you to the previous person that was in the role? You may just not get a fair shake at it, especially if it's the hiring manager talking negatively about the institution or the position that somebody's going to be directly working with. And you want to understand is that the culture that you want to go in and are you being set up for success? Another red flag for me is poor recruiting processes, and that's hard for me to say as a recruiter in my background, because sometimes the H.R. recruiter or the recruiter for the department or division can get overwhelmed. But if there's multiple reschedules strong delays within the interviewing process, that is a red flag to me because it could mean disorganization. It could mean that they're not sure what they're doing with the position and they're kind of hanging on to candidates to potentially change the position. It could be that they have finalized one or two other candidates, but in case they don't accept the offer or they don't pass a background check, we're going to hold you and bring you along as the third candidate. But there's a delay. So it's kind of a red flag that you might not be one of their top two choices, like are you holding on to second place as well? So if the other finalist is going into a background check and you haven't heard anything for two weeks, then that's a red flag if they're not checking in with you at all. A red flag for me, which I think we've referenced in another podcast, the state of Illinois in 2025 is implementing a pay transparency Act. So in the state of Illinois, like other states, including California, Oregon, New York, etcetera, you are required to post the compensation when you post the job. However, for those that are currently not doing that are legally required to do that, if we're not discussing compensation until the end of the search, that is a red flag for me. Are they trying to string you along as a candidate, get you really interested and then try to drop you with a low price? Mostly you don't want to waste your time if you have, as a candidate salary expectations that are so far out of the realm of what the institution is offering. You don't want to waste institutions time and you don't want to waste your time. So discussing comp also feels like they're hiding it, like they might not be happy about the salary or something. So discussing comp a first green flag, discussing after the first interview, yellow flag discussing at the end. Red flag. I think this goes without saying, but I will say it. inappropriate questions. There are just certain questions. You are legally not allowed to ask candidates. Now again as an h.r. Professional with recruiting in my background, training every single search committee member and search chair and hiring manager can be difficult. But for example, you can't ask a woman how old she is if she wants to have kids or she's going to get pregnant. You can't ask a guy if he's a super involved dad or does he have cancer genetic issues in his background. How old is he? When is he going to retire? So on and so forth. So if you're getting asked inappropriate questions or questions that feel like it's on the edge of inappropriate, so to to reference a woman who maybe wants to have kids, they're not going to necessarily ask like, are you pregnant right now? But what's your family life like? What is your work life balance like? What do you do outside of work? Trying to get specifics of are you going to be that person that works 12 hours instead of the 8 hours? Because you don't have the kids commitment that's there. And then on top. Of that,

Kelly Cherwin 4:36
I'm just going to jump in a quick with an example of kind of I like how you put that like questions are kind of on the edge or maybe bordering inappropriate and I've talked about this before in a previous podcast, but the interviewer asked a very vague question. He said, Please tell me something you believe in. And I, I just kind of thought like, I don't want to go anything. Is he baiting me to go political? Is he baiting me to go? You know, something else? So I just kept it very, very neutral. But yeah, that was a little bit of a yellow flag for me. I'm like, Oh, I don't know. So I, I know I've told this before, but I was just like, I don't think Navy Blue and Black Match, I don't think you should wear those together. So because I want to stay far away from anything that was controversial. So thank you for bringing up that about that you know inappropriate or illegal.

Kathleen Hermacinski 5:19
It was borderline questions and I think you you answered that well. And depending on what season you're at in your career, a younger emerging career professional may take that belief and say, I am this religion and kind of go with that broad answer that you're referencing. Personally, I like Navy and Black together, so I would disqualify you as a candidate. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But that is a very good example because

Kelly Cherwin 5:42
I didn't get the job right now, looking back, I probably should have not said that.

Kathleen Hermacinski 5:47
I thought that was a good answer, actually, because it is a very, very broad level question. I'm trying to say I believe in team collaboration and removing of silos, you know, try to bring it back to a work related, but navy blue and black that gave part of your personality. So I actually think that was a great way to to answer that question. But that is one of those borderline questions that even as somebody I know we're not talking about new hires and recruiting here, ask them, what do you mean by that? Can you clarify that question if you're not really sure what they're asking for, but try to avoid those yellow flag questions that are borderline.

Kelly Cherwin 6:21
Yeah, that's great advice. Sorry, I know I interrupted you so.

Kathleen Hermacinski 6:24
Oh, no, no, no, no, please. I like the conversation aspect of it. I would also say obviously in an interview, the employer and hiring manager or search committee is asking questions with the expectation that the candidate is asking questions in return. A red flag here is if it's vague answers, if we're vague on expectations, if you're asking a very straightforward question of we're talking about human resources, does this position have any managerial coaching? Oh, well, you know, we we re-envision this position and I we could, but it might not be like that's very vague. Why is it vague? Why is the job description not specific enough where you can give a straight answer? What else is going on in the background? So being able to have very specific expectations and very specific answers to your questions I think is crucial because that's a green flag. Answering questions when it's vague, that's red flag.

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Andy Hibel 7:55
I just want to put one thing out there what we're talking about here is an ideal situation like sometimes folks are looking for a job and they particularly in today's day and age, this is a privileged position to be in when you're evaluating red flags, yellow flags and green flags, you have to understand that sometimes getting a job is just what you need. And sometimes you might need to look at some of the red flags, even in those situations and understand this isn't really an opportunity. This is something that's a burden. It will force me from actually getting the job that I actually need to survive. It doesn't pay me enough to survive, but it uses all of my time up. Those are the things. Yes, you can pass on it. Those are red flags that are huge red flags. But also what we're talking about here is we do get feedback from people. I really don't have a choice but to take a job because I really need one. I need I need one for my family. I need one because I have been without a job for a period of time. We understand that what we're talking about here is really when you have those ideal situations. But I do want to add that about sometimes even in those pressure situations where you have to take it, you need to make sure that it does make sense. I guess what I would say instead of. through a bunch of unique examples, I think the first thing I want to put out there, that's just a huge red flag when the position is open of who you're reporting to, a.

Kathleen Hermacinski 9:20
Good one.

Andy Hibel 9:21
It's not necessarily a bad reflection on the organization, but you literally don't know what situation you're getting yourself into. You do not know who you'll be reporting to. You do not know what sort of culture that person will desire, and you do not know if your skills are ones that they actually value within a team. So more than anything else, if that's there, that's probably one of the biggest ones. I think people kind of like look at things during the interview and are looking for the responses and somehow skip over that. Once again. There's situations where you're like, This is too good of an opportunity. If I can last whatever period of time and make it to the next place, it's okay.

you about this. And in these instances, I understand that human resources needs to fill the positions that the hiring manager wants to fill. But as a human resources professional, what are you going to tell the hiring manager who hasn't filled the position but is trying to fill a position that's below that position about what they should be doing to engage with candidates and whether or not they should be proceeding on that that lower level search.

Kathleen Hermacinski 10:28
That it could be an ad hoc situation where they've had a net new position come in under a vacant position, which could be normal. But overall, I would say as long as the employer has open lines of communication as to why, you know, we're we are looking to fill this position that the hiring manager we're also filling this. This is our timeline on it. You know, you can ask the question, what kind of candidate are you looking for into that role? I'll put it an orange flag. If we can add a fourth category that it's not quite yellow, not quite red, because it could still be a good opportunity where the person being hired in without a hiring manager may have, depending on the institution, some say, and who they're going to hire as their boss, depending on where the timeline is, it it could be a concern, absolutely. But I don't think it's something that's so dire that it would warrant you not to apply or accept a position. But I do think the culture aspect, you don't know what that manager is going to look like. And you'd make a really good point, Andy. I just think orange flag, orange like. And then if I can piggyback on to something else for an.

Andy Hibel 11:31
Are you can add another color while we're at it at some point.

Kathleen Hermacinski 11:33
I mean, I think blue at some point, right. No, green. Wesleyan green is what we really need to focus on. I think one other red flag that is talked about in the DIY space, but should be in the for higher education space are microaggressions. So little bits of words or actions that kind of feel like maybe you're marginalizing a person of color or a person of a different national origin, gender, gender identity. And so be cognizant of maybe you're in a protected class or what your background is and are you picking up on those cues. Your gut may pick up on certain things that your listening ears are not. And if you see those microaggressions really part is that the hiring manager is that a big red flag? Is it a microaggression for maybe somebody on the search committee that you may be working with? Be cognizant, understanding what microaggressions are are helpful, but then when you see them, you know, really think about that. This could be a great opportunity. The dream job dream location. But are you going to be happy with the culture in that area if you're already picking up on microaggressions that are offensive?

Kelly Cherwin 12:41
Well, Kathleen, we appreciate you discussing all the different flags and what a jobseeker should look for. So thank you for joining us today.

Andy Hibel 12:48
Great having you again.

Kathleen Hermacinski 12:49
I appreciate it. Thanks, Andy. Thanks, Kelly.

Andy Hibel 12:52
And thank you for listening. If you have a question for Kathleen or any of our other experts, please feel free to email us at podcast@higheredjobs. com or send us a direct message on X @higheredcareers. Thanks for listening and we'll look forward to talking with you again soon.