Andy Hibel 0:05
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. Ask the Expert edition. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly Cherwin 0:12
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy. Today on the HigherEdJobs podcast, we're happy to welcome back two returning experts, Kathleen Hermacinski, head of human resources at Eureka College, and Matt Trainum, vice president for networks and strategic Partnerships at the Council of Independent Colleges. Thank you, Matt and Kathleen, for coming back and joining us today.

Matt Trainum 0:31
It's a pleasure to be here.

Kathleen Hermasinski 0:33
Thanks, Kelly, Andy, and Matt, it's always good to see you again.

Kelly Cherwin 0:36
Our listener's question is: How does a job seeker calculate their worth considering experience, education, and specialized skills so they're paid an equitable amount in a new role? Matt and Kathleen, who wants to start today?

Kathleen Hermacinski 0:50
I think Matt and I are going to have different responses to this. Do you mind if I go ahead and just start it?

Matt Trainum 0:56
Please do.

Kathleen Hermacinski 0:57
So, one of the biggest things I took away from when I was in college was the bls.gov and if you don't know what that is, it's the Bureau of Labor Statistics. They have a subsection for specific labor salaries for higher education based on faculty members for art versus business versus science versus human resource professionals in higher education and every other position. They give you the bell curve, what the bottom 10% is, the top 10%, and everything in between. I highly encourage all of your listeners to go to bls.gov to see what the salary ranges are for that position that is specific to higher education.

We all know higher education salaries are just a little bit lower compared to the private sector, so you want to make sure you're able to set those expectations. In addition, I think you need to calculate your worth geographically, so your worth in Central Illinois is not going to be the same monetary value in California or Oregon versus New York. If you look at the different costs of living, that's also going to be able to help you with that salary range that you're going to be financially comfortable with. In addition, different certifications that you have, especially if you have a Ph.D. in your faculty versus somebody who has a non tenure track role or doesn't have that terminal degree. So I say go to bls.gov and take a look at the median salary range, compare it to geographic areas that you're looking at and then compare it to your degree and skill set. And then I think you can find a range that will help you feel comfortable financially with your next position. Matt, what do you think?

Matt Trainum 2:42
No, I think that's a terrible answer. (joking, laughter)

Katle Hermacinski 2:48
Defend that, then... okay.

Matt Trainum
We are actually really in agreement. When I hear a question about how job seekers calculate their worth, my immediate thought is they don't, the market does and you're identifying how to figure out what the market is saying is the value of that work.

You've identified a fantastic resource. CUPA-HR Is a fantastic resource as well. Some of those require different levels of subscriptions to get to the specific information you might want. But having all of that data is good. Obviously, you talked about location, and similar roles at similar schools. All of that really comes into play. Everything in terms of salary is always in relation to everything else, right? So, all of those different factors matter. You can't just generically say a history professor gets paid this much because it's a history professor at what school and in what state at what size institution with what size of endowment. All of those factors come into play. And I will say generally these salaries are really set. The range might be a 15% range. That is, there may not be much of an option for a candidate to try to negotiate. But you need to know that. Kathleen, one of the things I most appreciated was identifying that the sector has in some ways lower salaries than maybe other sectors. I think, especially for people who are coming into higher ed from outside of higher ed, for them to understand and know that coming in. What you're getting in exchange for that smaller salary is supposed to be a job that has a different kind of reward built into it.

Kathleen Hermacinski 4:21
That's a good point. Matt, if I can just follow up on that. For example, at Eureka College, full-time, exempt staff and employees receive 52 total days off per year. That's a combination of when the campus is shut down, vacation time, reduced summer hours, and everything in between. That's a non-monetary benefit that is super generous compared to other institutions that I've been around. Some schools will put several hundred dollars into an HSA plan for medical insurance as a benefit, maybe tuition waivers through the Council of Independent Colleges or the Tuition Exchange. Don't think of what your worth is, but how do you value your worth? It's not just in salary, it's also in all of those fringe and non-fringe benefits.

Matt Trainum 5:13
Kathleen, that was perfect. I feel like I want to come work at your institution now and I love the shout out of the different kinds of benefits to keep in mind as you're evaluating an offer. If your spouse and your family members want to continue into higher education, at some point, most institutions have a tuition exchange. All of that really comes into play. A tuition exchange program by itself is in some ways a $40,000 benefit that suddenly is active for you.

Andy Hibel: I feel the necessity here to revert to my original education of being a tax lawyer where the Internal Revenue Service defines fair market value as the value of an item where a buyer and a seller, neither under compulsion to buy or sell, have exchanged the item. It's a great definition. It is actually what the IRS holds in many instances.

Matt Trainum: Andy, I have that printed on a T-shirt. (laughter from all)

Andy Hibel 6:10
It works when there's a quantitative number that you're trying to come to for an item. The challenge with it in these instances is the buyer and the seller. In these instances, the employer and the candidate, usually one or the other, is under some compulsion to buy or sell. And remember, given a set of circumstances that you're in, given the set of circumstances the school may be in, that's when depending on the market, if you're talking about 2021-2022, there may be some people where their fair market value was greater than it is now. Given the situation. Keep that in mind. The other part I'd add to this and I feel the necessity to Kathleen, you spoke very well of your organization, but I'd also talk about the value of associations like CIC and what folks like Matt do, which is bring professionals together. You have a network of people. People see this as: I'm going to do a job search now. I should know what I'm worth. If you're asking that question as you go into a job search, you're already behind the curve. What you should be doing is using the professional association that you work with. Yes, you should be working with one, and the network that you know. And when you see job postings that come from places where you know folks, call and ask about it, say, hey, listen, just trying to keep up with what's going on. So this position posted, are you able to confidentially share with me what the salary is? Because in this instance as a supervisor I may be trying to recruit somebody too and would like to know what my peers are paying. The best way to do that is to reach out to colleagues, because one of the best parts about working in academia is we are collaborative. We are not competitive in this way. Coke is not calling Pepsi to hear what a director of marketing is making, but schools do that all the time. Take advantage of the network that you built through that professional association.

Kathleen Hermacinski 8:05
And Andy, just a follow-up. It's not what you know, it's who you know. If you can just get in there with a recruiter because you're asking somebody in your network, that's going to give you a slight advantage, it's a slight advantage that somebody knows your name just because you're able to reach out within your network.

Mike Walker 8:21
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Kelly Cherwin 8:58
I just want to say I agree with everything that has been said here, and I think we have a common theme of using your resources, using your network and research. And Kathleen, we might have touched on this when we talked last time about early career jobseekers. But, you know, the question is evaluating your worth. I'll kind of poke fun at my teenagers; my 15-year-old thinks that she should get $40 an hour to babysit. Well, that's not what the market is saying. Parents are not going to pay her that. So, a new college graduate after four years thinks that because they were told three years ago the starting salary of this position is 100,000 that it's still the same. And to Andy's point, maybe it's not right now. You know, you have to make sure that you are asking the right questions and doing your research. Like you guys were saying, you know, reaching out to networks and going to bls.gov, looking at salary.com, all that. So, going in when you're getting ready to negotiate what the reasonable amount is, because, if my daughter's asking for $40 an hour, they're going to laugh at her. So we're trying to, you know, give advice to not be laughed at.

Andy Hibel 10:21
It's really expensive to have kids in suburban Chicago. I'm going to ask the same question from different perspectives of both of you in terms of timing and how to start talking about salary, maybe not negotiating, but talking about salary. And Matt, this is for the candidate side. At what point should a candidate bring in the discussion of salary expectations? But then from the employer's side, the worst part I feel when we try to hire is when we've gone all the way and found the candidate that we want to extend an offer to. And then we discover that the salary that we can pay for this position is not equal to the expectation that this wonderful candidate has. So how does the employer look at this and say, do I have the right candidate, if we get to this point, will they be a viable candidate to hire?

Matt Trainum 10:59
You know, I ran in-house recruitment at an institution covering hundreds of positions at an institution that had thousands of jobs. I did executive searches. I am a pretty staunch believer that salary should be, from an employer standpoint, that it should be listed upfront right away in a range that is fair enough. Not some $50,000 range. I am a believer in it. And Andy, I don't think you are. We should chat some more about it. I have just never been able to find an argument that makes sense to me on the counter side of that. So, from an employee standpoint, I think you have a right to know the range before the first interview, certainly before the second interview. And I think email is a perfectly valid way to do that. And as a matter of fact, I would encourage that because you don't want to spend your precious six minutes in an interview to be like, 'Can you remind me or clarify what the salary is? From what we've talked about before, your job when you're in an interview is to get them to want to hire you. Asking about salary doesn't get them to want to hire you. But if you're asking about salary over an email, it's perfectly appropriate. The reason that Andy, that you might have come upon those scenarios is people have different expectations and we all see the job listings. Salaries vary widely, and no candidate should spend their time preparing materials for a job that does not pay what they need. And the only way for them to know that is by having salaries listed and by having clarity early. Thank you.

Matt Trainum 12:35
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

Kathleen Hermacinski 12:37
Matt, I'm here for your TED Talk because I couldn't agree more. There are actually states like Illinois, starting January 1 of 2025, and other states like New York, California, Oregon, Pennsylvania, amongst others, that have pay protection that is either implemented or going to be implemented where all businesses within a certain threshold that most institutions will meet are required to post the pay and all of the applicable benefits when they post the position. So it should be out there. Starting January 1, we will be required to post what our salaries are. With what Matt said, we call and screen our candidates. So we'll go through and we'll create our top three and then our second three and then our next three and just have these tiers and go through them for those top three candidates. And I'll be like, Hey, are you still interested in the position? Can I answer any questions? Here's the salary range. We're looking to do interviews on this date. So it's a very organic, flowing conversation that we have with our candidates because, as Matt mentioned, you know, as an institution, we're doing our job to fill a role. But for the individual, this is a life-changing decision and we don't want to waste our time and we don't want to waste the candidate's time if our salary ranges are not even remotely in the same ballpark.

Andy Hibel 13:55
Matt, I actually agree very strongly with both you and Kathleen on this, that the transparency upfront and managing expectations upfront is in many instances, like in Illinois in 2025, it is legally required. But also, I think it's good business and the right thing to do for all involved. The one thing I would add is I love the idea of doing it by email. I think that that's something I think I'm going to, of course, with attribution, refer back to you, Matt, with the suggestion, because I think it's awkward to discuss it in person. It can linger on. It could take all six of those minutes that you have to tell about your candidacy. The culture has changed. It's not at all inappropriate to ask that way. And you can control the conversation and it's done and it's over with. The part I would add to it is that if an employer does not respond to that email and is not being transparent as much as you may love the job, that is a big obstacle for me to overcome. And suggest that you keep pursuing it. If they're not willing to tell you that at the appropriate time, I have a pretty good feeling you're not going to be pleased with what happens at the end and a salary that you may be interested in is not what's going to await you.

Kathleen Hermacinski 15:20
I'd also like to add that part of the recruitment process does give you an insight into what that institution's going to be like if you were to work there. So as Andy mentioned, if they're not being transparent with the salary, you know, is that secretive within the institution? And is that something that there's less communication about because of that? Or on the flip side, they're very transparent, and you're having a great conversation. They reply to that email because I do like that idea. When you get the call, it's kind of just as your first impression of the institution, whether it's good or bad, and the institution needs to be thinking about that. But just know, as you're going through that process, make sure you're starting to evaluate the institution from the moment you apply through the applicant tracking system.

Matt Trainum 16:02
Yes, Kathleen, I love that. Processing based on the process is actually one of the best tips I can give, especially when the process is in-house and being managed by the same people that you're going to work with. If it's not in-house and you won't be managed by the same people you're going to work with, you can take that with a grain of salt. But stepping back from this question a little bit about when's the right time to discuss salaries, I just wanted to share three thoughts. One is it's always about relationship, first. Once they want you, you do have some leverage, but you have to get to that point where they want you. And so, when Andy's talking about the awkwardness of asking, and sometimes that's because you're asking and they don't even know if they want to hire you yet. And it's just a little bit premature asking over email to confirm the amount is great, but talking about it and negotiating happens once they want you because that's when you have leverage. The second, we've talked about this before, but I think you need to decide how important the salary is. And I don't mean to be too silly with that, but there are so many other items that come in and we've talked about them before. There's travel that's covered. There are conferences as professional development, there are professional fees. I've seen people negotiate business class seats for their travel. Some people get on-campus apartments for nine months or a year when they're moving. Those are all interesting, negotiable pieces, so decide how important a salary is and then listen for where their boundaries are and then figure out what else you have in the conversation. You get to have maybe two go-rounds around salary at the end of the process, around negotiation, around different pieces. And so there are different things that you can ask for, what you might hear, which is because of equity issues, because of blank and blank, I really cannot go higher than blank. If they tell you that pretty clearly, be thoughtful before you push back on that. My third part is about pushing a little bit, which is to push and be flexible. So you want to listen for those cues. You want to find the space that you can negotiate, and you don't want to get stuck on small amounts. I was really surprised in the search processes I've been in. I'm sure, Kathleen, you've experienced this where, I mean, you're in the 3 or 4 % range of what the two parties are at and somebody wants to walk away. And that's an indication for me at this point in my career that something else is not lined up. But I would just caution people to be able to get out of their heads and step back a little bit if the final negotiation is close, take a moment and breathe, and say what do I really want for the next few years of my career, what am I really looking for? And then make the decision based on that and not based on salary. And those are just some other thoughts I wanted to share.

Kathleen Hermacinski 18:35
Matt I thought that was perfect. Just a follow-up on one point. Be honest. So you're in that thing where the institution or the recruiter likes you and they're starting to make that offer for the negotiations. You're talking about 3 to 4% differences. What is important to you? And answer that honestly. So, if you're coming from out of state, maybe you need housing. And maybe that 3 to 4% difference is because that's the mortgage you think you can make or the rent you think you can make in that area. But as you mentioned, as another side benefit is the institution could have campus housing available. So if you're honest within that 3 to 4% or, you know, anytime within a negotiation period, be honest with a recruiter like this is what I'm looking for. We may be able, especially in higher education, with the flexibility that we typically have, we may be able to find an accommodation that brings together that very, very small gap that Matt alluded to.

Kelly Cherwin 19:29
I love all of the above. I love your advice of being honest with the recruiter, and also just being honest with yourself. You don't want to accept a position that later on down the road you're feeling resentful because you think that you know, you should have gotten more or you took it and you're like, God, I really did need $10,000 more to survive a year. So just, you know, going back to like people are saying, building relationships and being honest is great. So thank you guys both for that wonderful conversation.

Andy Hibel 19:55
Definitely. Thank you both for this wonderful conversation. It's been lovely to have you both on this subject.

Matt Trainum 20:01
Thank you for having us and for this wonderful conversation.

Kathleen Hermacinski 20:04
This was a lot of fun. I appreciate it.

Andy Hibel 20:06
If you have questions for Matt and or Kathleen, please feel free to email us at podcast@HigherEdJobs.com or send us a direct message on X @HigherEdCareers. Thank you again for spending time with us today, and we look forward to talking to you soon.