Andy Hibel 0:02
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast Ask the Expert edition. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly Cherwin 0:10
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the Director of Editorial Strategy. Today, our guest expert is Dr. Christopher Lee. Chris is currently a managing director with Storbeck Search. Over his career, Chris has served as the chief human resources officer for William and Mary, Bates College and the Virginia Community College System. We also are fortunate to have Chris as a regular contributor with us at HigherEdJobs. Welcome back, Chris. We're happy to have you here.

Christopher Lee 0:34
Always fun to be here.

Kelly Cherwin 0:36
today's question is how can I distinguish myself as an older careerist whose work experiences, in and outside of higher ed, can be valuable to the academy. Does that come in my resume or cover letters, or elsewhere? And how can I transition from part time to full time when my age works against that and I don't have an impressive title? So, Chris, what are your thoughts on this?

Christopher Lee 0:56
You know, this is a multi-layered question, as you can see, and I think it makes some assumptions also related to how others might perceive their background and experiences. And I think it might even imply that people might not treat you fairly if you're old. So we're going to talk about, you know, the positive interpretation of all of these elements, as we kind of get into things. But I'll start with just kind of a global notion that, you know, there are very few, quote, absolutes when you think about resumes, cover letters and I'll also collateral materials and just kind of how you present yourself when you're applying for a job. but one thing for sure is that the goal of those materials is simply to get you an interview. Right. So whatever it is that you're offering, you're saying to them, hey, pay attention to me, or Hey, I got something good here. Let's talk. You know, we've talked about before in previous blog posts and conversations that really the resume is kind of a marketing piece, right? Some people have that notion. Some might have the notion that it's a kind of a summary of job experiences. And then you have the folks who have the CVS, which is supposed to be a complete kind of recording of one's, you know, background experiences. But I think if we're talking to resumes, we just we're talking about a marketing piece. It says, Talk to me. Right. So, I think, you know, that's kind of a perspective that I think helps to frame what, you know, the advice that we will offer. And then if you think about it that way, then you're saying, okay, what should a person say? And age would be obviously a factor in that that person would likely have a lot of Experience. So if you make the assumption that you have a lot to offer the questions, how do you tell the folks what you have to offer in such a way that it's impressive? So I think that's kind of a summary answer to those three questions, in one of them will kind of go down the list. Second, in a recent blog post, I can't remember the one exactly, but it was probably six or eight months ago Kelly, where we're people talk about like gaps in resumes. It's the same advice. It says you must tell your story or your version of the truth. Right. So if a person has questions about your background or what happened, why you relocated, why you took a lateral move versus a promotional move, or, you know, you had gap in your employment. People will come to a conclusion based upon their own knowledge and experiences. it would behoove one to tell their version of the truth and hopefully a positive version Sometimes it's as simple as I didn't like that job anymore right, or that boss really, you know, kind of forced me away or, you know, I was looking for new career opportunities or it would be my parents, you know, something or whatever. But a good way of seeing it is the way that presents you the best possible way And that needs to be true. It needs to be accurate. But instead of saying my ex-boss was a jerk, one might say, you know, I worked there a while of leadership change and I found myself being incompatible with the values and the culture of an organization that changed. Right. You or whatever Something, but the point is, you got to give your version of the Otherwise you've got a gap or change there, and people have questions. And my experience has been when they have questions, they don't always call you to say, hey, you know, you're applying for this job and we're concerned. You know, we have a question about that. What they do is pass you up.

Kelly Cherwin 4:38
Yeah. And they might fill in the blank with wrong assumptions.

Christopher Lee 4:40
Exactly. So it's telling one story I think is the big part. Now, when it comes to age we're being proactive. Right. Meaning that, you don't want them to ask questions. So sometimes you want to answer that question before they ask it. So a person might say, why would this very senior person want to take this, you know, kind of mid-level, position? Right. That's legitimate You they used to be assistant vice president but applied for directorship. The truth might be, you know what? I've gotten into a number that makes my life more comfortable, and I'm relocating to be nearer my grandkids Hey man, I would love to have a that I don't have to work until, you know, 8 p.m., three nights a week. You know, that's a good story, right? That gives the reader something to interpret in a positive way. So if you think people might ask that question, why are you going from an assistant vice president to a directorship? Just bring it up and offer your version of the truth. So I think that's really important. And then on the other side, from the age perspective, if you think people are going to say, well, this person didn't have as many years in front of them as somebody else you might offer the alternative view, which is this person's got a lot of great experience doing the kinds of things that we want right here, right now. They won't need ramp up time. Right. You know, they can definitely do the job. You know, they you know, they bring a whole lot of skills and experiences. So I would tell that story in the cover letter. Right. To be able to say accentuate your positives is like was kind of funny thought or maybe a little trite just to say, "Sell what you got. " And you got a lot of this over here. You may not have a lot of this over here. So you want to tell them what you can do, not focus on what you can't do or what others might see as a limitation. So talk about the fact that, know, you've been successful in similar environments doing similar work and you enjoy.

Kelly Cherwin 6:34
I'm assuming your thoughts are the same regarding that last part of that, the impressive title, The person should sell what they've done and what they can do compared to letting someone just look at, quote unquote impressive title. Actually, that's very subjective well. So I don't know either one of your thoughts on the impressive title of people hung up on that.

Andy Hibel 6:53
I think for me that title question is always a difficult one because I think just the evaluation of a title in and of itself. Subjective different people do it different ways. I think it's one of the data points of talking about your experience. I think kind of gleaning, Chris, what you said and just kind of putting an exclamation point on some of your points. The goal of the resume is to get you the interview, the privilege of being able to tell your story. And people always say, well, look at this great experience. How can they??? Experience is experience, but what people glean from their experience is much more important. A resume in and of itself cannot tell you what somebody values of their experience and I'd like to refer to one of the most divisive things my family does, which is at Disney going down the water ride. There are people you ask them about the experience of going down the water ride. When we go with friends and family, everybody has a different opinion of what that experience was all about. And I think even though two people could have the exact same job and the exact same experience, they're going to glean something different from it. Which comes to the next point, that I think you made Chris, tell your story. I think people sometimes forget about telling your story. Your ability to tell your story, you're also being graded on because that's part of the skills that you're going to need to do whatever your position is So, own your story. Tell it with the passion that you have for the parts that you're passionate about. And then, Chris, the third point be you. At the end of the day, if they hire you, if you basically faked it through this whole process and convinced them that you're somebody you're not, it's not going to end well for you or for them. Either, you're going to be miserable trying to keep up the ruse or they're going to say, maybe this person isn't who we thought they were. And I think those points in here, you are who you are. You're at the stage of the career of where you are showing transparency, telling your story. Well, and I think what it probably says, applying for jobs that really you're good to apply for the idea of applying for a job that's a stretch or doesn't apply to you or maybe really isn't even remotely applicable. That's really not worth your time. Like, it might make you feel good on days where you haven't filled out a lot of applications. But on other days, why are you applying for those jobs that really aren't jobs you're qualified for or you really want to do?

Christopher Lee 9:32
Yeah, And mentioned that idea a couple of times. So if I could jump on it here. In telling the story, you also tell your story as it relates to what they want and need. Right. So it's kind of like saying, you know, I'm a handyman and, you know, I can do carpentry, painting electrical stuff, but they want plumbing also. even if you did buy ten, 15% of plumbing in your life, you've done Plumbing. So you want to tell that part as well. You're telling the story in a way that speaks to what they want to hear. So I think that that's important to note as well. Another dimension of this age issue is longevity. Right. I was in a committee meeting about a year ago and someone trying to avoid the idea of, quote, age discrimination by saying, oh, this person's old. Right. You know. You know, they said this person's got a lot of runway in front of them. Talk about a younger person. Right. You know, way of kind of saying, you know, they may stay here longer. Now, I thought that was very clever but I've used that term before as well and tried to use it, appropriately. However, that's a stereotype, right? That's a stereotype because young people just because they had a lot of runway in I don't mean they're going to land on your field and stay in your field. You know what I'm saying research may actually show that younger generations tend to stay a shorter period of time than older generations. And each particular job. And so I think that's a factor. And I can remember when I was at the community college system, we appointed a president who was 65 years old, and he told the chancellor he'd serve for five years. Well, he served for seven, and then he did. He was great. He was one of the most amazing professionals I've worked for. And when came back after he had retired and served as an interim two more times. So the point is that we could have said 65 is too old. Right. And 58 is better. And you may not have gotten the same kind of output. And so that's the point. You can't avoid that. People might have their perceptions, but if you're the older person and you have a wherewithal, you might say, hey, I've served for at least 5 to 7 years at every place I've ever worked. As a way of talking about your experience, or I'm prepared to make a X number of years commitment as a capstone career opportunity. So the point is, you can tell your to overcome a potential objection if you're concerned about it. I'm going to say we'll have to go for sound, because I've heard many folks talk about that as well. Well, you know, we get to process all of this experience and they go on to come in above the salary range or really, really high in the salary range and things like that. And so, again, people are using someone's gifts against them. And again, you can also talk about that as well to say I'm perfectly willing to accept a market based wage for this position. Right. And I actually have this friend of mine who's a main professor And he just an amazing scholar. I can recall just about 15 years ago where he was a tenured professor at X university and what to move to the mid-Atlantic area and was applying for these several jobs and he wasn't getting interviews. It's kind of like, wow, he's really high in his field, tenured or whatever. And he wasn't getting the assistant professor job. And I said, Well, part of this because have a salary range or an expectation that someone with your background and wouldn't take that opportunity. Right? Because why would you not get an interview? Right. And so you've got to put that in the cover letter to say, hey, I understand that this is an assistant professorship and I'm willing to go through a tenure process and prove myself, as I've done before. Because if you really want to go to the mid-Atlantic because you have family's there and no associate or full professional positions are available, you take the job that's available So the point is, he wasn't getting interviews. He changed the strategy. It changed protocol Fortunately, he found, a name professorship that was commensurate with his experience. But the point was that it was like radio silence. He wasn't getting any interviews and it just didn't make any sense because, you know, that was the age issue. That was your salary issue and an expectation of the requirements of the job issue. But it's the same idea. Right. You're applying for a different position. And folks are telling stories to themselves in their heads. How you might perceive things. You're better off telling your story to address that.

Andy Hibel 13:52
Chris, from what it sounds like, there's different places where you want different things. The resume, the cover letter, or the CV or elsewhere. As you address some of these issues, are there any good practical advice that you'd offer people as to where to put what?

Christopher Lee 14:07
Yeah, think two or three points here. One is that for older professionals, some people will recommend a functional versus a chronological resumé. That kind of gives you more of summary of competencies and experiences. I think that that's fine. However, that's not a silver bullet, meaning that a close reading of any resume is going to give you good information. My advice is to use whatever format that you think represents you best. So it's not this or that is what highlights your experience and background in the best possible way. So, I wouldn't necessarily get caught up in that. And then to finish things out Andy, I'll also focus on the part of the question about going from full time to part time and no impressive title. So I would just say there's different parts of the whole, which is about telling your story while you go from full time to part time. Talk about the competencies that you've gained in your experiences regardless of title. It's, you know, communicating things that piques the interest of the reader. That's the obligation. You can't control all those other factors, but we can control our inputs into the process

Kelly Cherwin 15:21
Well, thanks, Chris. The overall theme here is to make sure you tell your story. So thank you for that advice.

Andy Hibel 15:27
Thanks, Chris. And if you have any questions for experts like Chris, please feel free to email them at podcast at HigherEdJobs.com or send us a direct message on X @higheredcareers. Thank you for listening and we look forward to talking to you real soon.