Kelly Cherwin 0:03
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs Podcast, ask the Expert Edition. I'm Kelly Cherwin, Director of Editorial Strategy. I am flying solo today as Andy Hibel is away so I'm happy to be joined with our guest expert, Gretchen Bataille. So Gretchen, it's great to have you back today.

Gretchen Bataille 0:20
Thank you. Glad to be back.

Kelly Cherwin 0:22
So the question from our listener today is, "As a woman, I am often not given the room to lead even when I have a leadership role. What are strategies to overcome this?" Gretchen, what are your thoughts on this question?

Gretchen Bataille 0:34
Well, it is the question always, isn't it? I think the important thing start early wherever you are in your career. There are ways to provide leadership from any position, even as a faculty member. Start offering solutions and faculty meetings to the chair or to the dean. Do your research about issues that are facing the university build your network through formal ways like committees or informal ways, like going to an exercise class or joining a campus organization and encourage future leadership among the students, and graduate students, undergraduate students, you just have to start thinking of yourself as a leader rather than a contrarian. And I have seen really some incredible women potential leaders crash and burn because they think their role is to be the contrarian in a faculty meeting, or to argue with the dean. If you have disagreements, go see the chair, go see the dean, have a meeting But don't publicly present yourself as someone who is not going to be a problem solver. I mean, that's what people want in their leaders, they want problem solvers. So also if you're bringing in ideas or questions, bring in solutions. You can talk about something's not going well with whatever, but here's something we should try. Have we ever tried this, at least bring in some ideas?

Kelly Cherwin 2:05
I just want to interject for a second, I love the idea of bringing in possible solutions, but then facts to support that, you know, stats of why, not just this is a good idea because so

Gretchen Bataille 2:16
no, I totally agree. I mean, you don't want to just have some hair brain idea or solution that is, you know, going to be illegal violate state law or something. But again, this is really a place where starting early, paying attention- reading, I mean, I'm surprised sometimes at how many potential leaders don't really know what's going on nationally. And what you see, if you read some of these materials, if you listen to podcasts, is you find out, oh, really, my idea is not a new idea. They're already doing that somewhere else. How could we structure it to make it work here? And so you can always say, you know, we've seen that right now, you know, maybe it's an issue with students using GPT and I read the series of articles that was published by whatever. And here are some things we ought to be thinking about so that you're, you're bringing solutions based on what's happening. I also think, again, for women, be bold. I know we get accused,of being too assertive sometimes, but it's okay. Be bold.

Kelly Cherwin 3:36
do you think on the flip side, some women might go to the opposite and kind of be hesitant or kind of wait for the, the, I don't want to say the red carpet to be rolled up, but like wait for their time to not be assertive enough and that can hinder them from actually leading.

Gretchen Bataille 3:54
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, some women, and there's a lot of research to show that women will say, I can't apply for that position because I don't have this particular experience Men, and this is just research I've read, men tend to say, well, I can apply for it because I can learn it. And so again, as, we know you can't learn things. And you can read about it so that when you, if you get an interview, you can say, I notice you want someone who's had experience working with, you know, internships. And while I haven't led internships, I have placed a lot of students because internships are handled by a different office on campus, so I have worked with that office. So you're saying, yeah, no, I didn't do the internships, but I know all about them. And I, could do this job. And so I think again, women are worried, you're right, about showing off. They don't want to be viewed as taking over, being too assertive, too aggressive. And so, you need to demonstrate right calmly, your leadership. Yes, I can do that. Here's what I've done. Here's what we could do.

review your own job descriptions sometimes to ensure you're carrying out the functions you were hired to perform because sometimes women get hired in a position. And then the supervisor is saying, well, you know, I know this isn't in your job description, but I really want you to do x, y and z. But sometimes you need to look back at that job description. Say, well, I was hired because I have skills in these areas. This is great. I'm going to learn some new areas. But you do your annual review, let's talk about my job description and how to review it to reflect the work I'm doing now.

Kelly Cherwin 5:45
love that idea of reviewing your job description and bringing it to your your supervisor wherever because maybe here she forgot exactly what every, you know, bullet point in that job description is. So that's great advice.

Gretchen Bataille 5:57
Well, and if that supervisor leaves and someone new comes in and says, you were hired to do these things and haven't been doing them, are you why are you working over here with all of these other projects? Well, because my previous supervisor wanted me to do it. Well, I don't want you to do it. And now you're not going to get a evaluation because you haven't been doing what's on your job description. So I mean, I think again, taking control is it's about taking control of your career, taking control of your position. Pay attention to the experts. I'll tell one the for women for anybody really. I think Silvia Ann Hulet's book Executive Presence is a really, really good read and provides some really excellent advice about how to demonstrate you are in charge. You know, you might fault fault her points and she talks about mistakes people make. And then you have to read it and say, I think I've done that. How do I not do it? How do I do it better? Listen to podcasts like this. Read the material that's online. Harvard Business Review. Subscribe to it. Read the articles about leadership. There are some great articles about women in leadership roles all the issues about imposter syndrome. Women tend to feel more more so than men that really shouldn't be in this position. They're not really smart enough. How do they get this job? Well, that just makes you reticent. It makes you unable to really move forward. And I don't want to turn this into a male versus female kind of thing because it's not really. But there's enough research out there to show that women can do more to push their own careers forward. The more they can do really behave like men behave in the job market and really tout what what they can do and what they're capable of. I also think you need to monitor your language. And this this is really an interesting, you know, the lot about women's language. Women often say things like I just want to learn more about this when someone brings something up. I just want to learn more about this instead of I would like learn more about this, just sounds like you're negating your question. Or I actually have a question. Really? You actually have a question?

Kelly Cherwin 8:20
Yeah.

Gretchen Bataille 8:20
No, I have a question, right? And so don't question your authority. Don't look for permission to speak up.

Kelly Cherwin 8:29
I was just going to say I think a lot of women will be like I'm sorry. Like that's how they start. Don't apologize for asking a question.

Gretchen Bataille 8:38
Right. Right. Yes. Excuse me or I'm sorry or I actually don't I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. No. It's the person who hasn't explained him or herself. It's not your lack of understanding. It may be the person hasn't explained it well enough you. But women tend to minimize their own capabilities in those situations. Using these qualifiers just undermines your authority. You should also rarely say I mean you can if you're discussing, you know, something that's nobody is an authority, but while I'm no authority on this but or I haven't done research on this, but you're negating your question from the beginning. So just say, what is the research show about blah, blah, blah? Right. Rather than somehow saying, well, I don't have a clue what you're talking about. you just basically minimize and apologize. You apologize for asking questions or apologize for bringing conflicting information into a conversation. And I do think that that of these habits that women have are the result of years of being labeled negative ways, not being considered nice enough. Nices, you know, always important to raise. But you don't have to worry about being nice enough when you're discussing important issues. And so, you know, again, assessing your language, being bold, carrying out the responsibilities that you've been given in your position and being very that that you are ready to move forward.

Kelly Cherwin 10:13
I love that advice, Gretchen. Thank you so much.

Mike Walker 10:16
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Kelly Cherwin 10:45
Gretchen, do you have any closing thoughts before we end today?

Gretchen Bataille 10:53
Well, one of the things we haven't talked about is how women And I do think that's to me. Obviously, I've interviewed a lot of men, a lot of women, a lot of folks for various jobs at various levels. And if you've made it to the interview stage, you're on your way. And if you truly believe that your skills qualify you for the position, you need to assess how you're going to get that information across to the search committee or the search consultant. You need to be fully prepared. You need to read everything you can about the university or the unit. You should have looked at who's on the search committee. You should have assessed what their interests might be. Google them. Find out maybe there's someone on the search committee from the community who is a huge proponent of fracking. Now, that may not have anything to do with the job you're interviewing for, but now you know something about that person's interests. And so you can gauge questions. You can gauge how you're answering. When you're in the answer all the questions succinctly. Don't ramble on and on or get off on some tangent. Have specific information when you can. And honestly, respond when you don't know the answer rather than talk all around the topic, topic. I mean, nothing is more boring to a search committee than recognizing this candidate doesn't have a clue what she's talking about and she won't shut up. Now, I mean, that that's really, it's the death of an interview.

Kelly Cherwin 12:29
More is not better in that case.

Gretchen Bataille 12:31
More is not better.

Well, it's your chance, the interviews the chance to reframe the job descriptions and expectations to fit your skills. Even sometimes, you know, answer the question you believe needs to be answered by reframing it to say, well, you asked about this, but I think there's another part of that we need to talk about first. And then you can put in what you can do, what your skills are. I also think, and again, this is it's tough for women out there sometimes because in the end, and hiring decisions are ultimately made by committees our hiring managers who are looking for a fit. They always use this word fit, right? Sometimes that means if the unit is predominantly male, they're looking for another guy for golf or Friday night poker and that's sad, but true. I think there's less of that going on now. I certainly saw a lot of that early in my career, and I have seen hiring managers looking for employees who will go along with the leader rather than question decisions. So you've got to balance the last thing you want to do is get an argument with the search committee. The real question to ask yourself, if you confront some of these negative behaviors is, do you really want the position? Do you really want to work with these people? Because at the end of the day, you need to be comfortable with the job that you're going to go into. And when you don't get what you thought was your dream job, it means you just have to work harder to get ready for the next one.

Kelly Cherwin 14:03
I'm actually glad you brought up fit because we do talk about fit at higher jobs a lot, and I really do believe it has to be the right fit on both sides, but the cases that you were explaining, like, yeah, finding someone to have another golf partner, then that isn't probably the right type of institution. That's not the right fit that you're looking for. You want to be valued, you want your personal mission to align with the institution's mission or the goals, the department, things like that. So, yeah, I think fit can have different meanings and in the way that you look at it. So if it's a fit of a negative a commentation, then yes, stay away from that. But that was great advice. Gretchen, I really appreciate our conversation today. I'm so happy you could join us. If anyone has a question for Gretchen, or any of our experts, please email us at

podcast@HigherEdJobs.com, or message us directly on X @higheredcareers. So thank you again, Gretchen, for joining us. And we look forward to speaking with everyone soon. Take care.