Andy Hibel 0:04
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer, and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly Cherwin 0:11
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy. Today, we're happy to have our friend Matt Trainum back. Thank you, Matt, for joining us.

Matt Trainum 0:19
It is a pleasure every time to be here.

Kelly Cherwin 0:21
So let's get started with our question from our listener. The question is, I was burnt out on the 24/7 corporate world and made a move into higher ed. I'm having a difficult time adjusting to the laissez-faire attitudes of some colleagues in my department at a time when there are many external environmental challenges and opportunities. Am I a bad cultural fit for my institution, my department, or just academia in general? After several years, I'm still previewing everything I'm about to say to avoid sounding like the "private sector guy". Will the self-censorship ever go away? Would I be a better fit in a business school? Matt, there's a lot here. What do you think?

Matt Trainum 1:00
There is a lot here, isn't there? You know, listening to this question as you were sharing it, it's also, you know, if ironic is the right use of this phrase. But it's fascinating because we have many people burnt out in higher ed going the other way. Many folks who are exiting the academy trying to seek more corporate roles for stability or better income. And here we have someone coming over this direction. So I just wanted to maybe highlight that, that interesting facet. I've got just a general sort of stage setting, and then a couple of thoughts in response. I think, as a general stage setting, what I will say is the observation that some schools are really motivated about this more than others, right? Motivated to change, motivated to drive, motivated to do something different. And there is also a fine line between motivated and terrified. Between being open to change and being anxious about it. Between an urgency and being unnerved. And so when I listen to this question, part of what I think about is "where is that institution sitting?" We all get to interact with schools all the time, and we know some are unnerved and anxious and terrified, and some don't seem to feel that pressure. But that's not most. Even exceptional institutions are feeling that pressure. I have shared before, I believe I've been with institutions with over a billion dollar endowments that aren't quite sure how they're going to manage it, because they are losing money every year based on the way the economics are working out. So I just wanted to set a stage there about the challenge of finding a school that is able to grab this moment well and embrace it resiliently and positively. So here's just a little comparison. I grew up watching Superman, and in Superman the story always starts with Superman's dad, Kal-El. And Kal-El is sitting here. He's usually in front of the room and he's telling everyone on the planet that the planet is in danger and no one is listening, right? I think at many institutions, what we actually have is a whole lot of people standing in front of the room saying the planet's danger, but nobody knows what to do. So I'm just trying to set the stage here for where we are as an industry, which is that there is a large feeling of concern and worry and that the level of that concern varies by institution. I'll just stop there a minute to say I don't know if any of that made any sense. But...

Andy Hibel 3:35
I feel like for folks listening out there, I need to ask this question of you. Can you remind us what your Ph.D. is in?

Matt Trainum 3:41
Oh, thank you for that. My PhD is in disruptive innovation in higher education, right? And in the challenges going on in the sector. And when I go back to this question specifically and ground myself in the question, I'll give you three thoughts to it. First is, I always love for people to state their truth, and this person's truth is things aren't going well and we need to address them. And to be able to state that truth from a position of caring is super important. So that's my first response to this person is state your truth. This is your truth, that this isn't going well, state it and state it from a position of caring. This takes practicing your language and having language that is ready for the moment and not just kind of a gut response when you're frustrated. I was at a campus once and they had a new president. The new president lasted five months and when the new president left, I got to campus and I said, "what happened?" And they said to me, "it was like he told us our baby was ugly." That was what they said to me. And so this person has to be careful that he's not telling everybody that their baby is ugly because there's nothing worse than telling people that their baby is ugly. So he has to practice. He-or she, excuse me-has to practice language that creates space for change and openness to change. And I would say, put yourself in their seat and imagine if someone is critiquing something that you've invested time and energy into and that you're not sure how to fix. What's the right kind of critique to give? So I'll just start with this idea of stating your truth coming from a position of caring and being thoughtful about the language you're using. That's one tip. The second tip, he or she has got to find their crowd. Someone on campus is having this conversation. Someone is! Even at the thriving institutions, someone is having this conversation. And so the frustration I hear in the reader is a frustration around not being able to act. And so the reader needs to find where action is happening on campus around this issue. And I will tell you, I am not sure if I've been to a campus, even a thriving campus, even a campus with a massive, massive endowment where there aren't people attempting to address the changes necessary. And so if that is not the department and that is not the division, find where that is on campus. It is happening somewhere. That energy is coming from somewhere. So my first step is to state their truth, my second tip is to find their crowd and find where that action is happening. And my last tip is pick your battles. One of my favorite all time memes is...it's the same picture. It's this picture of someone at a computer and the little caption says Day One: I Have No Idea What I'm Doing. And then the next one is the same picture. And the caption says Month Six. And the description is They Have No Idea What They're Doing. And I love this concept of how easy it is to critique the environments we're in. And so picking your battles is going to be really important. You can't critique everything going on. You can't find fault with all of it. And so figuring out how to find the language, to address the issues you want with the crowds you want on the topics that really matter is what I would suggest. I'd love to hear what y'all think of that.

Kelly Cherwin 7:13
I agree with all three points that that you made. And I think, you know, that's great to consider. I'm just going to flip and play a little bit of a devil's advocate here. Let's say this person is trying to figure out what battles to pick and they are using the right language because it says he's trying to avoid being that private sector guy. But my question is, two years! Two years to me is a long time to kind of go through those steps. So, what if this person actually is doing all the things you suggested? I don't think it's safe to say that, you know, he or she is a bad fit for academia and every institution is like this. But do you have thoughts on, after two years, how do you-or do you-reevaluate if you are a good cultural fit for that institution?

Matt Trainum 7:57
I really appreciate that. Part of where I was trying to think when we were talking about different kinds of institutions earlier is acknowledging that this urgency is different at different institutions and different within different units of the institution. And if this person is feeling like the house is on fire and nobody is attempting to put it out, then they have to figure out what their responsibility is. By the way, their responsibility might not be to put out the fire. Their responsibility might be to teach good classes in sociology. I'm not sure what the role of this person is, right. But if they're not able to do their role because of the uncertainty of the environment, then they should probably look for somewhere new. Just like if you were at a for-profit that didn't seem to be making money and you felt like you might need to leave. Now, if they're not able to perform their role based on their frustrations there, then I actually think they have other paths. They can decide how to give their attention to different things at the institution and find happiness in their work perhaps, right? I mean, there are ways to do that. But yeah, two years is a long time. And if you're not happy after two years and not feeling like the institution is significantly addressing the issues it needs to address, you know, we can always vote with our feet.

Kelly Cherwin 9:12
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Andy Hibel 9:44
I'd like to echo everything both of you have said to this point. And very much feel like the writer of this question, he or she deserves a lot of credit for being thoughtful in approaching and really applying some of the stuff that you're suggesting that he or she should do. But I think one of the things that I want to make sure that we're careful about, because I think it's it's really easy to say. Well, is this the industry, is this the institution. Is this the college. This is one sample. It's a big sample, and I agree with you, two years is a long time for that sample. But don't look at the college or the institution or academia as a profession and say that this is the way it is everywhere. And probably the words I'm reacting to are the laissez-faire side. I think when you look at the difference between a for-profit endeavor and a nonprofit endeavor, it's really ROI versus what I like to call ROM. On the for-profit side, and I've now been with HigherEdJobs as a for-profit business for 28 years. I deal with the financial side of our business on a day by day basis. It's really easy to look at, what you're trying to do is build an organization that makes revenue. Now you can do that different ways. You can build the type of organization you want to have. There's good business ways to care about missions, but also be financially profitable. But when you're at a nonprofit and you're talking about Return on Mission, the priorities aren't as obvious. And there's a lot of room to define what ROM really means within that organization. That's a tougher conversation, and good leadership will define that well and set expectations well. And that can be overall institutional leadership, it can be within a college or a department. And when you have that and everybody knows what they need to be doing to provide, if you will, a return on mission, that's when things are working in academia. I think it sometimes is perceived by folks who have lived only in the for-profit world as something that's kind of like, "why can't people just get their act together?" I think it's something beyond that. When you're doing mission based work, success can be defined many ways and allowing for the team to figure out what that direction and prioritization needs to be is part of being a good team player.

Matt Trainum 12:10
Andy, that is just brilliant. I read this question and I wonder what the writer is worried about. I wonder what they're experiencing and I wonder if it's a drop in number of students, if it's kind of a lack of keeping attention on whatever they perceive to be the ball, right? The thing that needs to get the most attention. And I love this translation you're offering of maybe there's some mission focus that is strong as perhaps this institution or other institutions that if that lens is added, perhaps that that adds to the understanding of the experience.

Kelly Cherwin 12:46
Andy, Matt, do you have anything to address regarding the better fit for business school?

Andy Hibel 12:51
If you're looking to see if it's going to be better in a business school, I'm going to teach you the two words that I learned best in law school, which is It Depends. It depends on what business school it is. It depends on the institution. It could very well be in a business school, but a business school's culture is going to vary from business school to business school as well. The business school is the subject matter. It's not meaning that there's a business orientation or more for-profit orientation that you'd find in the outside for-profit world.

Matt Trainum 13:21
I love that aspect of the question and I'm happy you mention it and I'll go back to where Andy referenced-Where's the leadership at? And I don't mean like, where's the leadership as if they're not there. I mean, what's the attitude of leadership towards change? That's going to be the biggest predictor, I would say, of the institution's sense of urgency and openness and motivation to change. If the leader is encouraging that, right? And so we have leaders who are simply not addressing it. We have leaders who are encouraging an openness and an urgency and motivation to change. And we have a lot of leaders who are anxious and unnerved and terrified about what's going on and aren't sure what to do. And so assessing that leadership voice, which you can often do by looking at clips on YouTube and reading some press releases. You can hear that voice of the leader pretty well. So that would be the direction I would go. And there's a subset here also of the leader doesn't have to be the president. It might be the department head could be a division head. Could be someone that you can partner with back to finding partners who are into that change and finding the crowd into that change.

Kelly Cherwin 14:25
Thank you, Matt. That was great.

Andy Hibel 14:26
Matt, thank you so much for really tackling an excellent and thoughtful question-but a very complex question-in a way that we hope the person who's sending them would find helpful. Thank you for listening and thank you for continuing to send these wonderful questions in. And if you have a question for us, please email us at podcast@HigherEdJobs.com or send us a direct message on X @HigherEdCareers. Thanks for listening and we look forward to talking soon.