Andy Hibel 0:04
Welcome to the HigherEdJobs podcast. Ask the Expert Edition. I'm Andy Hibel, the chief operating officer and one of the co-founders of HigherEdJobs.

Kelly Cherwin 0:12
And I'm Kelly Cherwin, the director of editorial strategy. Today we're here with expert Matt Trainum, who's the vice president, Networks and Strategic Partnerships at the Council of Independent Colleges. Welcome Matt.

Matt Trainum 0:24
It is always a pleasure to be with you all and be with your community.

Kelly Cherwin 0:27
So let's get into our question today from our listener. The question is how do I advocate for the money or funding to attend a conference or training? Kind of a short and sweet question, but what do you think they are Matt?

Matt Trainum 0:39
I love a good short and sweet question. We occasionally have ones that are that are not like that. I always like to set the stage with some of these questions and I'll set the stage by just acknowledging the changing world of support for this kind of thing. Outside of the top 50 institutions in the country, this is really less assumed. It used to really be assumed for more faculty roles, especially even for staff roles, the ability to to travel and have that kind of professional development. So part of what I want to do is maybe normalize the fact that there is more effort and work needed to get funding to attend a conference or training now, and that people should not necessarily hold that against the organization kind of thing. It's just it's just where the sector is. That said, in terms of how do you get more money and how do you advocate for things? Here's what I will say. Your growth has an individual's value by your organization. I'm just going to assume that I think that's probably true for most supervisors with the people that we're working with. Your growth is valued, but the institutions at space where it cannot elevate your growth over everyone else's growth unless your growth is somehow supporting the institution's goals. So when I see your question about how do I advocate for money or funding to attend a conference, it's all about attaching and pulling back into where the organization is going and what the organization values. So that that would look like. I would say, listen, for what's important at the organization, Look at the strategic plan, look at division plans, listen to the president and the provost in their public remarks. What are they talking about? What is driving their attention? And then after you listen, you anchor to those priorities pretty directly so you can say, hey, I'm going to a session that I know AI is important to you because I've heard you mention that. And this conference has three sessions AI this conference has four sessions on how to teach better. This conference has an amazing section on how to take choir music instruction and do that in a hybrid format. And I know that that's where we want to take our program, and that's why I should go. I'll pause there for a minute and just see that sound like what you all are experiencing and seeing.

Andy Hibel 2:41
I really love that you lead with this is the new normal. The new normal is budgets are extremely tight. To do things like this and schools are really I would say it's even in some of those larger jumbo sized schools, you're not going to necessarily even have an easy time in some departments. It's going to vary throughout the campus. So putting a cogent case out there as to what you can get and acknowledging the pain that it is now to to secure this, I think folks just need to accept that as the new normal.

Kelly Cherwin 3:18
And I want to acknowledge that the part that you said that you're connecting it to the institutions mission are their goals are not just making it about yourself. You know, like I want to go to this conference because I want to go like your supervisor, your leadership team has to see, like you said, how can mutually, you know, be beneficial to both you as individual and, you know, your professional growth, but also as institution as well? And I think we all can agree that the cost of attending conferences has gone up. So there's a lot to consider in making the decision. So kind of, you know, selling your self and how you can take back the skills that you've learned at the conference and help the overall institution is a great idea.

Matt Trainum 3:57
Kelly I really would also encourage folks to to realize that doing that is not somehow betraying what they actually want to do. So there's a little bit of a linguistic trick here, which is a very good ethical linguistic trick. I want to go to this conference because it's going to advance my own professional development. Right. And I get it. And so we're just asking for an additional step of how does it also support what the institutions trying to do. So as I was mentioning, listening for what's important and trying to anchor in those important things, the next thing I would say is, is there a way that you can share out what you've learned? Conferences have traditionally been this introspective moment, and they are for me, I go and honestly, I'll sit in a session for one sentence that inspires me and I can take that one sentence and run with it for hours in my head and think about it and and reflect on it. And I love that. And is there something I can do back for the institution as well? So you get bonus, by the way, if that's something you're doing, relieves someone else of work. So if H.R. is funding professional development and they're also are doing a newsletter every month, perhaps you can offer to write something for the newsletter so they don't have to write something for the newsletter. And that then gives a benefit to H.R. for funding that effort. Perhaps the teaching and Learning Center does quarterly activities or quarterly teachings and brown bag lunches that you could do instead focusing on whatever you took away. So there's kind of a what's the ROI I forever anyone and and I, I don't mean to make it too crass I get the idea that these are moments to deeply reflect and think and that the outcomes are not always immediately. You know a widget in your hand. And I'm not trying to sacrifice that. I am trying to say, Is there a way that you can return something in addition to your own reflection.

Andy Hibel 5:43
Spot on my friend? Spot on. I think there's one thing that and I just know you well enough, Matt, to be able to say that say you weren't going to say. And I feel like Kelly and I have to to say this and let's just be honest here. You work for a professional association, the CIC conference I've been to. It's wonderful. It's I know Kelly goes just about every year and it's one of her favorites. It's a wonderful experience for anybody who gets the privilege of attending. I think Kelly hates it when I do this, but I may bring up one of Kelly's articles and I'm actually going to bring up Kelly's first article she's ever written for the site, which is entitled Why Join a Professional Association? It's from March of 2010. It's still applies today, and there's three big reasons in there enhancing your network, taking charge of your career and broadening your knowledge and all those things can inure back a larger network. The contact you meet at a conference and let's just be honest here, Matt and I met at a conference. Yes, we did. Like I met Matt probably a few years before 2010. I don't want to say how many few, but it was a few and we got to know each other through the conference circuit. That network benefits the entire institution. When there's a question about what you need to do professionally about something that you do. If you have a peer from across the country that you can pick up the phone and talk to, You've just made your professional an even better professional by having other peers they can reach out to. So much of what we do in academia, we're kind of unique in our campus. In a lot of these roles. You may have some peers, but you may not have a lot of peers that are your local peers. That network does matter to the institution. So I don't want to let go of the professional association has a lot of value in itself for you, but that all innures to the benefit of the institution that you represent.

Matt Trainum 7:42
And you elevate a really good part of this question, which is where are you going when you're traveling with this professional development money? And I would say that the associations and the organizations that are offering professional development opportunities need to be offering those really aligned with the moment. And that that is also a different expectation for them than it used to be. The applicability of the conversations has got to be more direct because most people, most folks in positions don't have ten years to just reflect, right? They need to be resolving and speaking into something now. So there's there is a bit of a question I would ask of if your event you're going to if you struggle and struggle and can't figure out how to tie it back in to what's going on at your institution, well, that that might be a worthy reflection to have. Is there some other event? Right? Is there somewhere else that you could go? So there's a negotiation here. There's a flexibility that you might bring where you say, this thing that I used to love is no longer speaking into the moment of my institution. And so let me find an event in an opportunity that is. And so, you know, you referenced the council of independant colleges. There's a lot of effort at the programming we do to make sure it applies to the current moment for higher education. And also echo, by the way, the extreme value of these activities, the extreme value. So, you know, my background is change management. That's all my academic research and academic work and model after model shows that to support an institution in changing, you have to introduce new ideas and those new ideas are vastly introduced by the people on your campus, traveling and experiencing and seeing what's going on in other places. So this work is critically important. And if you want the if you want the most the loosest argument to make to your folks for ROI, it would simply be going to events gives me understanding of change happening at other places that I can bring back here. And I know it's important to you all that we are changing and moving forward. And so that would be another way to take that argument.

Kelly Cherwin 9:42
That's perfectly said and I must say I wish I would have known you back in 2010 because I could have interviewed you for that article. So thanks, Andy, for bringing that out.

Andy Hibel 9:50
Well, the great thing about articles on HigherEdJobs, that they can be revised on the Internet like once it's written there doesn't necessarily need to be that. So maybe that's an idea of something we could revise.

Matt Trainum 10:01
Right? 14 years in. How's it looking? Yeah, it's an interesting moment for that. It's probably a great moment to talk about that reflection in that value. Again.

Mike Walker 10:08
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Kelly Cherwin 10:43
One thing I wanted to add to this and I'll open this up to both you guys and how you feel about this but if you know kind of flipping it to a job seeker and you are applying to a position and you know that professional development and attending trainings and conferences is really important to you for your professional growth. How do you feel about asking that in the interview? What their take or, you know, how they view professional development?

Matt Trainum 11:08
Kelly I love the question. So you might have seen me for if there's any video ever of this podcast. I started to smirk as you ask that. I think that is a wonderful question. At time of job offer as you're negotiating benefits and understanding, I personally have always hated that question earlier because you're telling me you're going to take my job or not based on 1500 dollars, I'm going to give you to go to an event. And it sounds often to me very it's not the kind of question I want someone to ask when they're deciding if they want to come work with me or not. I want them to understand my culture. I want them to understand their responsibilities. I'm also imagining that the role they're about to get is going to be full of interesting challenges. Truthfully, when I think of a lot of professional development, I'm doing air quotes here. I would like to create a role in a position for someone that has a lot of that built in. Right. And so there's a there's a looseness of the terminology that can sometimes frustrate me when I hear people asking about professional development opportunities. That said, if I kind of put away some of that philosophical piece, I think when you're getting ready to go work somewhere, how do you support travel? Right? Do you support opportunities? What does that look like? Is that guaranteed? How much is that? If it's not guaranteed, how likely is it? And to add to where we started this new moment, where this is simply it's harder to budget for this kind of thing? It might also be one of these where maybe I just ask for more money and I just know I'll pay for it myself. So if they're not giving it to everybody else, they might not can give it to you and they might have a little more flexibility on the salary negotiation. And, you know, I love going to my association meeting or I love going to this and I'll just pay for it myself and I'll go and enjoy it and I won't worry about it.

Andy Hibel 12:41
It's kind of funny. It's not often this happens, but I actually see it somewhat differently than Matt. I love that question. I'm not offended by it. I think it's a litmus test question that every candidate should ask because I think it's telling. So part of the message here is for management and supervisors and leadership that let's let's look at a practical part right here. The practical part is if you're in management and leadership at an institution, you want to retain your good employees and you want them growing in those positions and you want to be able to provide them places to go with their career that can keep them at your institution. If you are not doing this. And I'm not saying you need to send somebody to a conference every year, that's what you should be asking. But if you don't have an equitable way of getting everybody involved and being invested with everybody who's working for you and what their professional development is, how it's going to be applied to me as a candidate that shows that you want me there, you want me to do the work. But if I grow as a professional, great. If I don't, great too. But what you really want is an environment, from my perspective, where you can grow and your growth is supported. And if the institution can't provide that next step, once you've fully grown into that next step, then they're going to be wishing you well when you find that next step someplace else. And as an institution, if that's the sort of institution you are, you're like, Why am I be losing people? Yes, you will. But the reputation you will gain as an institution of a place where folks want to work and they want to learn and they want to grow, you'll have a lot easier time recruiting people with the world saying that about you.

Matt Trainum 14:22
I want to I want to do a yes and answer, but then really kind of not. Yes. And so I yes and all of what you just said, but I'm really arguing a technical point here, which is when you're interviewing and you've got 15 minutes for a question, those questions don't feel like they're revealing very much of what the kind of job is you're getting into or the the people you're working with. I don't think they're going to be reflective of your long term satisfaction or success in the institution. And I think they might reflect some pieces like you're talking about, and I think they're valid things to ask. I'm really just arguing around this idea of in these short interview moments, I would hope you have something more interesting to ask me. You could ask me that in an email and a one liner. You know, just tell me what that money is. So. So, yes. And I support everything you said. And I think this is technical interviewing tactic that I'm really thinking about when I hear that question pop up in my head.

Kelly Cherwin 15:16
So more that the timing, I guess you're saying there. But I'm glad I asked that question. And thank you guys for your your feedback on that.

Matt Trainum 15:23
That was fun Andy.

Andy Hibel 15:24
That was fun.

Kelly Cherwin 15:25
Well, thanks, Matt, for joining us today. That was a fun conversation. We look forward to having you back next time.

Matt Trainum 15:31
Always a treat. Thank you all.

Andy Hibel 15:32
Thanks, Matt. And thank you for listening to the podcast today and joining us. If you have a question for us, please email us at podcast at higheredjobs.com or send us a message on X @higheredcareers. Thanks and we'll talk to you soon.